Jump to content
Cold?
Local
Radar
Snow?

Scottish Politics 2011-2017


Recommended Posts

So what are you suggesting, that the Yes side should just melt away in disappointment never to be heard from again? Is that what Labour did after they lost the last Westminster GE, or indeed what the Tories did when Blair & Brown were PM? No, all political parties/movements have their ups and downs but if they are true in their beliefs then they continue to campaign for them. God help us if the Suffragettes had given up, or the US Civil Rights movement, or the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, or Ghandi in India etc. Those who want to see Independence lost, and lost fairly, but that doesn't mean the desire has gone away.

Bearing in mind the expense of a referendum such as this it is likely to be some years before there is another one and in the intervening period the interests of Scotland, in my view, as with anywhere else, would be best served by the people by the people working together towards common aims, despite their individual differences.

 

In my view there is a lot of difference between the Suffragettes, the US civil rights movement, the anti apartheid movement in South Africa and the Indian movement towards independence and the Scottish claim for independence. These are examples of people genuinely being treated as second class citizens with losses of civil rights the rest of us take for granted, so I fail to see how these examples can be considered appropriate.

 

With Scotland the situation is that there is already self government to an extent with many decisions being taken as regards the local conditions of the people and as far as I can see, its own law and administration thereof in many respects as opposed to English law and a welfare and education system; and none of these people are subjugated to second class citizens by law as was the situation in the examples you mentioned.

 

Even without full independence Holyrood will gain more powers with the passage of time without necessarily becoming divorced from the rest of the UK.

 

I do not believe that I am alone in believing that Scottish traditions and culture etc enrich the rest of the UK and ultimately Europe and as a people the Scots are highly respected around the world - as part of a whole, together we Brits can remain greater than the sum of our component parts through this diversity.

 

There is a lot of truth in the saying, 'United we stand, divided we fall'. I also wonder what the soldiers, sailors and airmen who gave their lives in the past for the protection of Britain would think of this current situation. 

 

Take it a step further and imagine that Scotland were to gain its independence and as, I gather, would still wish to be a member of the European Union, you would not have complete independence because it would still be subject to EU regulations as we all are. 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
Spotted a post you think may be an issue? Please help the team by reporting it.
  • Replies 30.9k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Scottish-Irish Skier

    8874

  • mountain shadow

    1528

  • skifreak

    1435

  • frogesque

    1306

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

Posted Images

Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    Erm, wow.

     

    Yougov Scottish subset this morning for Westminster.

     

    17% Con

    29% Lab

    3% Lib

    45% SNP

     

    SNP(+PC) = 6% UK-wide following weighting.

     

    So SNP = up to 60% in Scotland in this sample...

     

    And that's with the normal SNP respondent heavy down-weight, in this case 70 to 37.

     

    This sort of thing may help explain the increasing number of 'Labour in serious trouble in Scotland' articles appearing in the news.

     

    'SNP for Westminster 2015' if you want devo max or indy is the message and initial evidence is that's working.

     

    We may be about to witness a situation where all unionist parties combined become a minority force in Scottish politics. 

    Edited by scottish skier
    • Like 4
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Part of a clear trend and one to watch.

     

    On today's figures, utter wipe out for Labour. On the raw subset, SNP would take 70%+ of MPs.

     

    On weighted share of the national total, even higher possibly.

     

    Scotland doesn't want a Labour, Lib or Tory government in Westminster.

     

    74% want a Holyrood government with devo max at minimum. As a result, no point in voting Labour any more for WM, particularly as they're the most resistant to more devolution. That and they won the referendum for the Tories.

     

    If this happens, i.e. unionist parties become a minority force in Scotland, then the only way the union will survive is devo max / full fiscal autonomy in a confederal arrangement.

     

    ---

     

    Labour to Scots two weeks ago...

     

    - Everything is fine, the union is great

    - Tories are not that bad

    - The NHS is safe

    - Union means jobs and security

     

    Now:

    - Everything is a disaster, Britain is broken

    - Tories are evil

    - NHS is on the brink of being destroyed

    - Jobs and security are under threat

     

    And folk won't notice that?

     

    ---

     

    Also, a very worthy appeal. They've already over doubled their target in a few days so maybe consider chipping in a bit to other causes they highlight. Wings (approaching 1 million users now) is backing the project and likely to be involved.

     

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/broadcast-news-for-scotland

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx9sDcmpaNM

     

    Guys that did Dateline Scotland, Scotland Yet, The Fear Factor (in my sig) A Parting Hymn (in my sig).

     

    The 45 (indy) to 74% (indy + devo max) need traditional media representation to ensure democracy. Lets make that happen. We've done it online, lets do it on the TV and in the newsagent.

     

     

    ---

     

    Also...

     

    I'm hearing that RIC - who were instrumental in getting the old Labour vote in heartlands to deliver a Yes (e.g. Yes Cities of Glasgow and Dundee) - are going to do the same for 2015, promoting an SNP vote.

    Edited by scottish skier
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Bearing in mind the expense of a referendum such as this it is likely to be some years before there is another one and in the intervening period the interests of Scotland, in my view, as with anywhere else, would be best served by the people by the people working together towards common aims, despite their individual differences.

     

    In my view there is a lot of difference between the Suffragettes, the US civil rights movement, the anti apartheid movement in South Africa and the Indian movement towards independence and the Scottish claim for independence. These are examples of people genuinely being treated as second class citizens with losses of civil rights the rest of us take for granted, so I fail to see how these examples can be considered appropriate.

     

    With Scotland the situation is that there is already self government to an extent with many decisions being taken as regards the local conditions of the people and as far as I can see, its own law and administration thereof in many respects as opposed to English law and a welfare and education system; and none of these people are subjugated to second class citizens by law as was the situation in the examples you mentioned.

     

    Even without full independence Holyrood will gain more powers with the passage of time without necessarily becoming divorced from the rest of the UK.

     

    I do not believe that I am alone in believing that Scottish traditions and culture etc enrich the rest of the UK and ultimately Europe and as a people the Scots are highly respected around the world - as part of a whole, together we Brits can remain greater than the sum of our component parts through this diversity.

     

    There is a lot of truth in the saying, 'United we stand, divided we fall'. I also wonder what the soldiers, sailors and airmen who gave their lives in the past for the protection of Britain would think of this current situation. 

     

    Take it a step further and imagine that Scotland were to gain its independence and as, I gather, would still wish to be a member of the European Union, you would not have complete independence because it would still be subject to EU regulations as we all are. 

     

    Best post in here in ages.

     

    The reference to the suffragettes, Ghandi, etc., is, as you say, completely inappropriate.

    • Like 2
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W

    Best post in here in ages.

     

    The reference to the suffragettes, Ghandi, etc., is, as you say, completely inappropriate.

    Is it inappropriate to have ANY aspirations then or should we all just doff our caps and know our place?

     

    The cost of the Scottish Iref was projected to be £13.3M (3rd April 2013) give or take a bit. Allowing for inflation etc. say  £15M as a final ballpark

     

    Whilst it's not chickenfeed Cameron promised £2M for Bournmouth (Tory heartland) when the pier burnt down! Seems the UK is only poor when it suits.

     

    Projected costs for HS2 are in the region of £32B and will only benefit London long term, Meanwhile look at the UK motorway network and see how little infrastructure has come North of the Border. Of course we will still have our aspirations and targets.

    Edited by frogesque
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Is it inappropriate to have ANY aspirations then or should we all just doff our caps and know our place?

     

    The cost of the Scottish Iref was projected to be £13.3M (3rd April 2013) give or take a bit. Allowing for inflation etc. say  £15M as a final ballpark

     

    Whilst it's not chickenfeed Cameron promised £2M for Bournmouth (Tory heartland) when the pier burnt down! Seems the UK is only poor when it suits.

     

    You appear to have misunderstood (wilfully?). I'm not saying it is inappropriate to have inspirations or to fight against oppression at all. I'm saying that to equate the goal of Scottish independence with the movements mentioned is wholly inappropriate and is an insult to those who fought in them.

    • Like 3
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Seems the UK is only poor when it suits.

     

    Yes, looks like we can afford to blow up lots of people in the middle east again, whereby massively increasing the terrorist threat to the UK, but budgets for hospitals, Schools etc need to be cut.

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Scottish-householders-rights-to-object-to-fracking-to-be-removed-108e.aspx

     
    Scottish householders rights to object to fracking to be removed
     
    UK announces decision to drill under homes without consent.
     
    UK Government have announced that they are to remove the rights of householders to object to oil and gas drilling and hydraulic fracturing beneath their homes. This will include householders in Scotland, and comes despite 99 per cent of respondents to the UK Government consultation on the proposals objecting to them.
     
    It will mean that companies will be allowed to drill below people’s land without first negotiating a right of access.
     
    Scotland’s Energy Minister Fergus Ewing officially objected to the proposals and has condemned the decision, and has called for the key powers relating to this issue to be devolved to Scotland as part of the current devolution process. This would allow unconventional oil and gas exploration in Scotland to be considered in a cautious, considered and evidence-based way, as opposed to the “gung-ho†approach of the UK Government...
     
    Something to keep in mind when you are heading to the polling both in May next year.
    • Like 1
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Longlevens, 16m ASL / Bradley Stoke, 75m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Hot sunny summers, cold snowy winters
  • Location: Longlevens, 16m ASL / Bradley Stoke, 75m ASL

    Yes we could just sit back and watch innocent civilians be massacred like we did in Ruwanda etc or we can be a selfish yes supporter

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    You appear to have misunderstood (wilfully?). I'm not saying it is inappropriate to have inspirations or to fight against oppression at all. I'm saying that to equate the goal of Scottish independence with the movements mentioned is wholly inappropriate and is an insult to those who fought in them.

     

    Oh come off it, "wholly inappropriate", "an insult"?

     

    I wasn't trying to compare Scottish Independence directly with any of those movements anyway, I was using well know historical movements to illustrate that if you believe in something then you don't just give up when things don't go your way, you persevere.

     

    To most in the Yes movement Independence wasn't a goal just for the sake of being independent. It was more the hope that Independence would bring a fairer society and one where the politicians were more responsive to the people's wishes. For me, even if we must accept that another referendum is undoubtedly many years away, these hopes of a fairer, more equal society are something that we must still strive to achieve.

    • Like 2
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    Yes we could just sit back and watch innocent civilians be massacred like we did in Ruwanda etc or we can be a selfish yes supporter

     

    Of course no one that voted No could possibly be against bombing innocent civilians could they? It may not be the intention but it will happen.

     

    Great stereotyping there!

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Peterborough
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and frost in the winter. Hot and sunny, thunderstorms in the summer.
  • Location: Peterborough

     

    Of course no one that voted No could possibly be against bombing innocent civilians could they? It may not be the intention but it will happen.

     

    Great stereotyping there!

    Unfortunately after years of poor international politics in the region we are now in a situation where we cannot ignore IS. To let them grow and take over more of the region could be catastrophic in years to come for all of us. Ultimately we need the full backing of governments around the middle east region to ultimately crush them.

    Unfortunately this is distracting politicians from domestic issues (again), well except the ones which will result in our homes sinking into the abyss (thanks Scottish skier) :p

    • Like 1
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    Yes we could just sit back and watch innocent civilians be massacred like we did in Ruwanda etc or we can be a selfish yes supporter

    The hellacious mess that is the situation with the Islamic State is one in a good part made because of our inability to stop medalling in an area where our involvement can only do more damage than good. How many hundreds of thousand of people have lost their life because of our last illegal adventure in Iraq and the wholly inadequate plan for dealing with the 'peace' after the war.

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Live Thame (Oxfordshire), Work Heathrow Airport
  • Location: Live Thame (Oxfordshire), Work Heathrow Airport

    The hellacious mess that is the situation with the Islamic State is one in a good part made because of our inability to stop medalling in an area where our involvement can only do more damage than good. How many hundreds of thousand of people have lost their life because of our last illegal adventure in Iraq and the wholly inadequate plan for dealing with the 'peace' after the war.

    How is getting rid of a murderous dictator "illegal"????????

    250 people were protesting outside Downing Street with banners saying don't bomb Iraq. Would they like us to leave the extremists alone so they can build bombs and plan attacks against the West. Maybe we could fly them out there and they can have a friendly chat and a cup of tea with the extremists

    Edited by No Balls Like Snow Balls
    • Like 1
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    I think we may be diverging from the thread topic "Scottish Politics".

    • Like 1
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    The hellacious mess that is the situation with the Islamic State is one in a good part made because of our inability to stop medalling in an area where our involvement can only do more damage than good. How many hundreds of thousand of people have lost their life because of our last illegal adventure in Iraq and the wholly inadequate plan for dealing with the 'peace' after the war.

    But using that logic you'd just never intervene because of past mistakes. So you'd be happy to twiddle your thumbs as IS move into another town and start executing people?

    We can't right the wrongs of past mistakes. I do hope that the SNP refrain from trying to make political capital out of this at the GE, personally I would find that pretty shameful.

    • Like 4
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    But using that logic you'd just never intervene because of past mistakes. So you'd be happy to twiddle your thumbs as IS move into another town and start executing people?

     

    I caught a bit of 'Weekly Politics' before going to bed last night. There's not much I agree with George Galloway about but I thought he made at least some sense last night. As he said, it's not that we can't agree that IS/ISIS (whatever they are currently called) need to be dealt with. But why do we need to be the ones doing the bombing? Why not support the governments of Iraq & Syria in dealing with them. Why not encourage Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey etc to be the ones being involved militarily. Why does it always seem to be our problem?

     

    We can't right the wrongs of past mistakes. I do hope that the SNP refrain from trying to make political capital out of this at the GE, personally I would find that pretty shameful.

     

    It depends what you mean by 'political capital'. If people in Scotland turn out to be generally against further involvement in the Middle East then shouldn't at least one of the main political parties in Scotland be able to, or even be required to, reflect that opinion?

    • Like 2
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    But using that logic you'd just never intervene because of past mistakes. So you'd be happy to twiddle your thumbs as IS move into another town and start executing people?

    We can't right the wrongs of past mistakes. I do hope that the SNP refrain from trying to make political capital out of this at the GE, personally I would find that pretty shameful.

    While our past mistakes contributed to this mess and there is an argument having gone in we came out of Iraq too quickly, but by going back in our further involvement on all historical precedents can only mean a bigger mess at some future date. As with Ravelin, saw the Daily Politics last night - the Saudi government have 100s of fighter jets, why aren't they contributing in a meaningful way?

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W

    You appear to have misunderstood (wilfully?). I'm not saying it is inappropriate to have inspirations or to fight against oppression at all. I'm saying that to equate the goal of Scottish independence with the movements mentioned is wholly inappropriate and is an insult to those who fought in them.

    No misunderstanding on my part. An aspiration does not die after a setback. The work goes forward, be that to end an appalling abuse of human rights or failing an exam and resitting it.

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)
  • Weather Preferences: cold and snowy in winter, a good mix of weather the rest of the time
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)

    Glad to see the SNP opposing the intervention in Iraq. Of course we believe ISIL is abhorrent and needs to be stopped but air strikes alone are unlikely to do very much to help and the last thing we need at the moment is a third Iraq war without any clear exit strategy in place.

    • Like 5
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)
  • Weather Preferences: cold and snowy in winter, a good mix of weather the rest of the time
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)

    No misunderstanding on my part. An aspiration does not die after a setback. The work goes forward, be that to end an appalling abuse of human rights or failing an exam and resitting it.

    Of course, and in our case the cause has rarely been in a healthier state - the SNP obscurity in the 50s, the devolution defeat of '79 and near parliamentary wipeout in the 80s so why would we just give up? 

    • Like 2
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Glad to see the SNP opposing the intervention in Iraq. Of course we believe ISIL is abhorrent and needs to be stopped but air strikes alone are unlikely to do very much to help and the last thing we need at the moment is a third Iraq war without any clear exit strategy in place.

     

    Yes, I hope it does work out, but I fear it will only make things worse. Bomb one nutter while taking out nearby kids, mums, people on the way to market etc, and another 2 will pop up to replace them. 

     

    No plan at all. Just bomb for peace.

     

    BBC Scotland doing it's lovely bias thing on the way home. Almost gushing about how the vote was so overwhelming for another (Iraq) war. Made it very clear that the SNP voted against due to the same big concerns as various Tories, Labour, Libs, Greens etc (total of 43) who also did so and presumably why so many also abstained (80 or so?).

     

    Was then followed by this story. Over 20 unionists arrested now (if there were any number of Yessers arrested, we'd know all about it), but the radio story just like the online one.

     

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-29382212

     

    'Trouble on both sides' is the false implication. No mention of the No thanks banners with proud Nazi salutes and police having to control the rioting No, but not the yes. No mention of thugs attacking young women and pulling them to the ground to tear their saltires off them. Wonder why. You need to watch overseas TV to hear about that.

    Edited by scottish skier
    • Like 1
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    On a lighter note. They keep coming. Similar story for the Greens and the SSP.

     

    1.6% of the electorate now a member of the SNP.

     

    This apparent will to engage in politics is amazing and hopefully results in large turnouts in the future.

     

    https://twitter.com/PeterMurrell

     

    Everything is awesome, everything is cool when you’re part of @theSNP team. 41,385 new, 67,027 total members. Join: https://my.snp.org/join 

     

    Big

    Edited by scottish skier
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Glad to see the SNP opposing the intervention in Iraq. Of course we believe ISIL is abhorrent and needs to be stopped but air strikes alone are unlikely to do very much to help and the last thing we need at the moment is a third Iraq war without any clear exit strategy in place.

     

    UN resolution? Clear idea of who is going to get bombed? Clear idea of why they need to be bombed? Any last minute changes of side...aren't these some of the same groups who the UK were going to help only last year? Clear idea of when to stop military action? Clear on anything? I've got no doubt that ISIL and other extremist groups need to be stopped, but is bombing them going to work?

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Guest
    This topic is now closed to further replies.
    • UK Storm and Severe Convective Forecast

      UK Severe Convective & Storm Forecast - Issued 2021-05-15 09:37:16 Valid: 15/05/2021 0600 - 16/05/2021 0600 THUNDERSTORM WATCH - SAT 15TH MAY 2021 Click here for the full forecast

      Nick F
      Nick F
      Latest weather updates from Netweather

      Cool with heavy thundery downpours through the weekend & next week

      If you're hoping for some dry and warm weather, then it looks like you're in for a long wait, as the cool and showery conditions will continue through the weekend and much of next week. Some heavy and thundery downpours for many most days. Read the full update here

      Netweather forecasts
      Netweather forecasts
      Latest weather updates from Netweather

      Cool Showerfest continues for the next week. Hints of a change beyond that?

      With the jet stream close to the south and low pressure nearby over the next 7 days, expect showers or longer spells of rain over many areas, staying cool too, with temperatures below average. But hints of something drier and more settled arriving next weekend. View the full blog here

      Nick F
      Nick F
      Latest weather updates from Netweather
    • Recently Browsing   0 members

      No registered users viewing this page.

    ×
    ×
    • Create New...