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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.
  • Weather Preferences: very cold frosty days, blizzards, very hot weather, floods, storms
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.

     

    Surely you're not suggesting that as a valid argument for riding roughshod over anything approaching democracy, are you?

    Of course not!! :p

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    SNP states that if we win 50 % of the 52 Scottish Westminster seats which is 26 seats then we have legal mandate to declare independence. Its not so undemocratic if 45% of people becomes 51% favors independence. They only need 6%.

     

    They've just stated the true legal position.

     

    Scottish MPs can withdraw Scotland from the union if they agree in majority. It's what I grew up with pre-devolution; Thatcher (and Labour) reminded Scotland of this all the time. Vote SNP if you want indy. SNP stood on a negotiate indy ticket.

     

    The SNP would not actually do that though unless they had got >50% of the vote based on that manifesto commitment or in extreme circumstances, e.g. a new referendum had been overruled, or some massive punishment was being put on Scotland against its will.

     

    To be recognised as an independent nation in the eyes of the world, you need to do things by the book and the SNP well know that.

     

    Being spun nicely by the MSM as usual. They must be in a panic over the SNP becoming the 3rd biggest party in the UK.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and storms
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.

    SNP states that if we win 50 % of the 52 Scottish Westminster seats which is 26 seats then we have legal mandate to declare independence. Its not so undemocratic if 45% of people becomes 51% favors independence. They only need 6%.

    Is it that clear cut if the seats are not won by PR - because more people would still have voted against the SNP than for?

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    Posted
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W

     

    Surely you're not suggesting that as a valid argument for riding roughshod over anything approaching democracy, are you?

    It happened in 1979 when a dirty deal was done in the wee sma' hours at Westminster. However, I believe Scots on the whole are more honourable. We will abide by any fair democratic process.

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    Posted
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W

    Just out of interest - are Scot voters happy with the (West Lothian) concept that each respective country's MP's voting on their own internal matters whilst joining together with the rest of the Union on International matters? So that the Scottish MP's don't vote on English only concerns in the same way that the English can't vote in Holyrood.

     

    I can't understand why any party would oppose this on common sense grounds (only self interest grounds). And I don't see why it should take long to work out practical arrangements for this either, as most of the electorate with half a brain cell can get their head around this fairly quickly.

    Up to a point I would agree but there are cautions. Suppose England went for full privatisation on say health and Scotland remained as now with free at point of delivery care, free prescriptions etc. This would cause such an imbalance that there would be the prospect of folk migrating to Scotland for health reasons. It could bankrupt Scotland's health service.

     

    Is it such a big deal anyway, how many Scots MPs actually vote on English only affairs?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I should also note that the pro-indy parties could stand for Holyrood on a clear 'negotiate independence' ticket.

     

    If they get more than 50% of the vote that's a democratic mandate so long as it's clear.

     

    I don't expect that imminently though; only in extreme circumstances.

     

    AS just outlines different legal possibilities when asked. His preferred option was a referendum. His successors are not bound by that.

     

    Anyway, can I ask people replace 'SALMOND' by 'STURGEON' now. The former is soon to be out of date.

     

    Blow for STURGEON as SALMOND steps down...

     

    Nicola is currently the most popular politician in the UK in terms of appropriate electorate.

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    Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    It happened in 1979 when a dirty deal was done in the wee sma' hours at Westminster. However, I believe Scots on the whole are more honourable. We will abide by any fair democratic process.

    I hope so because that is what we had on Thursday with a massive turnout when the majority rejected independence. So much for accepting the result. We, the Scottish electorate voted to remain part of the UK. To reject that at this stage is to go against what the majority voted for, for whatever reason.

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    Posted
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W

    I hope so because that is what we had on Thursday with a massive turnout when the majority rejected independence. So much for accepting the result. We, the Scottish electorate voted to remain part of the UK. To reject that at this stage is to go against what the majority voted for, for whatever reason.

    Exactly, I think everyone is in 'wait and see' mode. Cameron HAS to deliver on the Vow or the UK is toast.

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    Posted
  • Location: Peterborough
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and frost in the winter. Hot and sunny, thunderstorms in the summer.
  • Location: Peterborough

    Is it such a big deal anyway, how many Scots MPs actually vote on English only affairs?

    In the past it was critical, for example the passing of the higher education act in 2004 was effectively decided by Scottish MPs as the labour MPs up there swayed the vote. Of course with Labour being the opposition now this mitigates this issue. The main issue now is more a matter of principle than anything else. Labour would be stupid to oppose this as frankly rejecting further devolution will kill them off as a major party of decades. It's best to take the loss now and work on trying to attract people to vote for them through a well thought out and positive manifesto.

    I wrote that with a straight face..... promise  :crazy:

    Edited by Captain shortwave
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    Posted
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and storms
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.

    Up to a point I would agree but there are cautions. Suppose England went for full privatisation on say health and Scotland remained as now with free at point of delivery care, free prescriptions etc. This would cause such an imbalance that there would be the prospect of folk migrating to Scotland for health reasons. It could bankrupt Scotland's health service.

     

    Is it such a big deal anyway, how many Scots MPs actually vote on English only affairs?

    Thanks, I think it unlikely to have a massive migration for the NHS. I don't know what percentage of Scot MP's vote for English affairs though I am pretty sure that labour will be a bit peeved if they can't call on their Scottish and Welsh MP's when they need them.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    Sounds pretty idiotic and undemocratic to me.

    Perhaps try listening to what Alex Salmond actually said and it's context, not the twisted spin Better Together have put on it in the past 24 hours, the tweet last night from Blair McDougall and Alistair Darling's comments suggesting the Scottish Government are about to do a UDI are completely laughable and beyond parody, yet the MSM appears to now be running with it!

    Even if no new powers are coming, this is the last year and a bit of the current status quo because of the 2012 Scotland Act, these changes came through joint parliamentary process at Holyrood and Westminster, not a referendum. We could potentially get to DevoMax through incremental parliamentary changes, though IMO a single shift to a clearly defined full DevoMax by referendum would be better.

    Australia never had a referendum on becoming independent from the UK, it just happened gradually and incrementally, final gaining official independence with the 1986 Australia Act. It was this sort of thing Alex Salmond was referring too, where devolution would progress to the point that Scotland was defacto independent to the degree that formal independence would be just a symbolic formality, not major change.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I hope so because that is what we had on Thursday with a massive turnout when the majority rejected independence. So much for accepting the result. We, the Scottish electorate voted to remain part of the UK. To reject that at this stage is to go against what the majority voted for, for whatever reason.

     

     

    Yes, and I don't see anyone rejecting the result. It has been accepted with no disputes, other than a few online tinfoil hatters.

     

    At the same time, even though the Tories, Labour, Libs etc lost the 2011 election, they continue to campaign for their beliefs in how Scotland should be governed / ask people to vote for them.

     

    Independence supporters / parties are free to do the same. That's democracy. Anything else would be subjugation (e.g. Straw's ideas).

     

    If pro-indy parties call it wrong by pushing something not wanted, they'll suffer in elections. If they get it right, they won't. C'est la vie.

     

    I await devo max offers and we'll see what happens with that.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    Just out of interest - are Scot voters happy with the (West Lothian) concept that each respective country's MP's voting on their own internal matters whilst joining together with the rest of the Union on International matters? So that the Scottish MP's don't vote on English only concerns in the same way that the English can't vote in Holyrood.

     

    I can't understand why any party would oppose this on common sense grounds (only self interest grounds). And I don't see why it should take long to work out practical arrangements for this either, as most of the electorate with half a brain cell can get their head around this fairly quickly.

    The West Lothian Question absolutely needs sorting for sure, but while much of the mechanics of it is a matter for England - it's not as straight forward as simply English Votes for English Laws in isolation, because that just returns the democratic deficit the other way when these 'English Votes' determine the budget for the devolved governments in Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh.

    There are three possible scenarios that could be worked through to an equitable solution:

    A) Fully Federal UK (but federations with one entity massively larger than the rest are rarely stable).

    B) DevoMax - Full Fiscal Autonomy for Scotland with reduced powers for Scottish MPs at Westminster.

    C) Dissolution of the UK with Scottish Independence.

    Option B doesn't entirely address the West Lothian Question because though much reduced you could still conceivably have the same effect with Welsh and NI MPs.

    Option B also potentially creates situations where UK Labour government cabinet ministers run English department of states, but the Tories have a majority of English seats. This is a mirror image of past democratic deficit issues in Scotland, but would be less of a democratic deficit and more of a farce with English Votes for English Laws because the UK government would basically either be unable to govern England or would have to implement the policies of HM's official opposition.

    Solving that by having distinct English and UK governments formed out of the same parliamentary chamber when sometimes they would be formed of the same party and sometimes of opposing parties would be a shambles. It was considered that holding the Scottish and UK General Elections on the same day next May for the first fixed term UK GE was a bad idea when it was clearly separate parliaments (though there is no provision beyond that and they will both occur on Thursday 7th May 2020). Is it really credible to have a UK GE that forms both the UK and English Government, if the Leader of the Opposition stands at the dispatch box as First Minister of England, is it really credible that the Prime Minster is the top politician in the UK?

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    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    I thought Salmond might just bow out gracefully rather than come up with stupid comments concerning UDI. Theres no chance whatsoever this would happen unless Scotland wanted a complete economic and political catastrophe to ensue.

     

    If Westminster doesn't honour its pledge then fair enough call another referendum but really this talk of UDI is utter nonsense!

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    I thought Salmond might just bow out gracefully rather than come up with stupid comments concerning UDI. Theres no chance whatsoever this would happen unless Scotland wanted a complete economic and political catastrophe to ensue.

     

    If Westminster doesn't honour its pledge then fair enough call another referendum but really this talk of UDI is utter nonsense!

    The Scottish Government is not threatening to do a UDI, the way the MSM is spinning this today you'd think they were planning it for 6am tomorrow morning! The comments have been completely twisted to a meaning utterly different from what was actually said.

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    Posted
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and storms
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.

    The West Lothian Question absolutely needs sorting for sure, but while much of the mechanics of it is a matter for England - it's not as straight forward as simply English Votes for English Laws in isolation, because that just returns the democratic deficit the other way when these 'English Votes' determine the budget for the devolved governments in Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh.

    There are three possible scenarios that could be worked through to an equitable solution:

    A) Fully Federal UK (but federations with one entity massively larger than the rest are rarely stable).

    B) DevoMax - Full Fiscal Autonomy for Scotland with reduced powers for Scottish MPs at Westminster.

    C) Dissolution of the UK with Scottish Independence.

    Option B doesn't entirely address the West Lothian Question because though much reduced you could still conceivably have the same effect with Welsh and NI MPs.

    Option B also potentially creates situations where UK Labour government cabinet ministers run English department of states, but the Tories have a majority of English seats. This is a mirror image of past democratic deficit issues in Scotland, but would be less of a democratic deficit and more of a farce with English Votes for English Laws because the UK government would basically either be unable to govern England or would have to implement the policies of HM's official opposition.

    Solving that by having distinct English and UK governments formed out of the same parliamentary chamber when sometimes they would be formed of the same party and sometimes of opposing parties would be a shambles. It was considered that holding the Scottish and UK General Elections on the same day next May for the first fixed term UK GE was a bad idea when it was clearly separate parliaments (though there is no provision beyond that and they will both occur on Thursday 7th May 2020). Is it really credible to have a UK GE that forms both the UK and English Government, if the Leader of the Opposition stands at the dispatch box as First Minister of England, is it really credible that the Prime Minster is the top politician in the UK?

    Firstly, I think that the budgets for the devolved governments should be worked out by 'UK votes' not just English votes.

     

    I hadn't really thought that about any First Minister of England being different political party to that of the Prime Minister - but in reality I don't see why that should any different to what we see currently in Scotland, Wales and NI and I don't see that as being a shambles. Ultimately, that would be democracy in action. But I can think of a party that wouldn't want it at all.

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    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    The Scottish Government is not threatening to do a UDI, the way the MSM is spinning this today you'd think they were planning it for 6am tomorrow morning! The comments have been completely twisted to a meaning utterly different from what was actually said.

    Actually they should pack both Salmond and Sillars off to the nearest retirement home before they become a total embarrassment. I've read Salmonds comments and the shameful ones by Sillars aimed at older people.

     

    Will Scotland be bringing in a Logans Run policy and cull the elderly so that they don't get in the way of what the "younger generation want"!

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    The West Lothian Question absolutely needs sorting for sure, but while much of the mechanics of it is a matter for England - it's not as straight forward as simply English Votes for English Laws in isolation, because that just returns the democratic deficit the other way when these 'English Votes' determine the budget for the devolved governments in Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh.There are three possible scenarios that could be worked through to an equitable solution:A) Fully Federal UK (but federations with one entity massively larger than the rest are rarely stable).B) DevoMax - Full Fiscal Autonomy for Scotland with reduced powers for Scottish MPs at Westminster.C) Dissolution of the UK with Scottish Independence.Option B doesn't entirely address the West Lothian Question because though much reduced you could still conceivably have the same effect with Welsh and NI MPs.Option B also potentially creates situations where UK Labour government cabinet ministers run English department of states, but the Tories have a majority of English seats. This is a mirror image of past democratic deficit issues in Scotland, but would be less of a democratic deficit and more of a farce with English Votes for English Laws because the UK government would basically either be unable to govern England or would have to implement the policies of HM's official opposition.Solving that by having distinct English and UK governments formed out of the same parliamentary chamber when sometimes they would be formed of the same party and sometimes of opposing parties would be a shambles. It was considered that holding the Scottish and UK General Elections on the same day next May for the first fixed term UK GE was a bad idea when it was clearly separate parliaments (though there is no provision beyond that and they will both occur on Thursday 7th May 2020). Is it really credible to have a UK GE that forms both the UK and English Government, if the Leader of the Opposition stands at the dispatch box as First Minister of England, is it really credible that the Prime Minster is the top politician in the UK?

    Basically I agree with what Skifreak said. The West Lothian Question is something that should have been addressed before now, and if it had been in reverse i.e. The West Sussex Question I'm sure us in Scotland would be complaining bitterly about it. The problem now is that the more powers that are devolved to Scotland the more pressing it becomes to address it. It isn't as simple to address as it first looks though, not without potentially causing equally unfair situations. One thing you can say though is that of all the major political parties it is Labour who have the most to lose currently if it is addressed and therefore they are likely to be the most reluctant to agree to do anything about it. I do think that for Labour its the 'bear trap' that has been talked about as on one hand they can't afford to lose the votes of their Scottish MPs but on the other hand they need to be seen to be doing something by the English electorate.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    I hadn't really thought that about any First Minister of England being different political party to that of the Prime Minister - but in reality I don't see why that should any different to what we see currently in Scotland, Wales and NI and I don't see that as being a shambles.

    I see the shambles element in a situation where that the House of Commons would be serving as lower chamber of the UK Parliament and the unicameral Parliament of England. If there was a distinct English Parliament with separate elections then it would solve that issue, but bring us back to the issues of federations where one member completely dominates in terms of size. That could be addressed by a Senate with equal representation for each of the four Home Nations by I don't see that kite flying long in England?

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    I hope so because that is what we had on Thursday with a massive turnout when the majority rejected independence. So much for accepting the result. We, the Scottish electorate voted to remain part of the UK. To reject that at this stage is to go against what the majority voted for, for whatever reason.

    As a Northern Irish unionist you should know the power of the ballot box and maintaining majority rule. If 50 percent of Scots vote SNP, that negates the referendum.

    Your only as good as your last result is the football metaphor.

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    Posted
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and storms
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.

    As a Northern Irish unionist you should know the power of the ballot box and maintaining majority rule. If 50 percent of Scots vote SNP, that negates the referendum.

    Your only as good as your last result is the football metaphor.

    Except that the football matches are all stopped once the SNP finally win........ so their last result is always a good one (for them).

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Actually they should pack both Salmond and Sillars off to the nearest retirement home before they become a total embarrassment. I've read Salmonds comments and the shameful ones by Sillars aimed at older people.

     

    Will Scotland be bringing in a Logans Run policy and cull the elderly so that they don't get in the way of what the "younger generation want"!

     

    If we are going by popularity, then Dave, Ed and Nick should go first.

     

    Ed miliband got 15% sat vs 80% unsat in the latest Yougov Scotland subset. OMG; that's nuts.

     

    Balls is aiming to 'cull the elderly' BTW. Them and children; the latter being responsible for the financial mess the UK is in it seems.

     

     

    SNP sticking with free care etc instead. I hope they can continue to afford it when the main cuts come.

     

    Looks like an 80's coming again and we know how that ended constitutionally.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    As a Northern Irish unionist you should know the power of the ballot box and maintaining majority rule. If 50 percent of Scots vote SNP, that negates the referendum.

    Your only as good as your last result is the football metaphor.

    But not all SNP voters voted Yes? Maybe some people just like their other policies. Lets be honest how many won't vote SNP if their manifesto states clearly that a vote for them is a vote to declare independence.

     

    If you thought BT was Project Fear on the referendum it will be project Complete Apocalypse if that was the case.

     

    And this time that would be fact as you'd have to be mad to vote for that as the repercussions would be catastrophic.

     

    If the extra powers that go to Scotland don't meet with the approval of Scottish voters then I'm sure another referendum would follow. But I don't see any chance what so ever of Scotland going down the UDI route.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Hey folks, suddenly the NHS is at risk!

     

    Who knew.

     

    Was safe until Friday past it seems.

     

    Examples abound.

     

    Time to vote them out Scotland. A party can mature with age, but too long and it goes rancid.

     

    I'm a just left of centre, socially liberal democrat and calm as I am, I f**king hate the Labour party#. Hardie would turn in his grave at what they've become. Stand up for your principles fine, but bloody have some principles (sorry, but I must say it; this was the party of much of my family who have left them - the disappointment is strong).

     

    SNP UKGE 2015.

     

    Whoever you want Scotland 2016. Greens, SSP, even Scottish Tories. Just lance that New Labour boil once and for all; the e.g. SSP can take it's place.

     

    #Hate is probably not the right word; just utter frustration and disappointment in them and who they've betrayed.

    post-9421-0-27241600-1411424077_thumb.jp

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Perhaps try listening to what Alex Salmond actually said and it's context, not the twisted spin Better Together have put on it in the past 24 hours, the tweet last night from Blair McDougall and Alistair Darling's comments suggesting the Scottish Government are about to do a UDI are completely laughable and beyond parody, yet the MSM appears to now be running with it!

    Even if no new powers are coming, this is the last year and a bit of the current status quo because of the 2012 Scotland Act, these changes came through joint parliamentary process at Holyrood and Westminster, not a referendum. We could potentially get to DevoMax through incremental parliamentary changes, though IMO a single shift to a clearly defined full DevoMax by referendum would be better.

    Australia never had a referendum on becoming independent from the UK, it just happened gradually and incrementally, final gaining official independence with the 1986 Australia Act. It was this sort of thing Alex Salmond was referring too, where devolution would progress to the point that Scotland was defacto independent to the degree that formal independence would be just a symbolic formality, not major change.

     

    I was responding to what was posted in here. Still, your condescension is much appreciated, especially its irony, given that you misrepresented what I had posted in TWO before the referendum in such a brazen way hh.

    Edited by NickR
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