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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Longlevens, 16m ASL / Bradley Stoke, 75m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Hot sunny summers, cold snowy winters
  • Location: Longlevens, 16m ASL / Bradley Stoke, 75m ASL

    Exactly what I think and believe I posted yesterday

    Yep I was saying much the same thing and all YES was replying was if they want CU they will get CU, and avoided answering the question about then not actually being independent.

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Both you and CS above you are spot on. The currency issue has muddied the waters. It should have been a clear cut, "Yes we'll use the pound until we're independent, then we'll have our own currency". It has bewildered and confused me as to what the problem is. Too much time has been wasted on debating a CU. Time which should have been spent on other issues. If YES loses the vote (which is looking likely), then to me this could be the vote loser. Time will tell and I hope I'm wrong, but although it looks close it's not looking good for YES.

    Yes the currency issue is the one that could lose the referendum for you, particularly amongst the older voters.

    You've got to wonder about the competency of the SNP in not having addressed this issue at the outset.

     

    A joint government study has found a monetary union between New Zealand and Australia is not a practical option given the countries' political and economic differences. The report, prepared by officials from both countries, said the costs of a monetary union with a common currency and monetary policies outweighed the benefits.   "They imply a loss of autonomy over monetary policy and exchange rate flexibility, which are important tools for macroeconomic stability," the report said. "

     

     

    Tying New Zealand's  fortunes to Australia's currency would have resulted in monetary policy being driven by Australian conditions, with decisions made by the Reserve Bank of Australia." ........why did the SNP even contemplate going down this route?

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    Posted
  • Location: Haddington, East Lothian, Scotland
  • Weather Preferences: Snow, Thunderstorms, Warm summer evenings
  • Location: Haddington, East Lothian, Scotland

    Whatever the result now, the Scottish people are divided - AS has certainly achieved that. To try and infer that you are not a proper Scot and proud to be so by voting to keep the Union is disgraceful. We have seen that displayed in this thread a number of times.

    That was seen in the way Ed milliband was treated today. Not the Yes campaigns proudest moment.

    I was actually in the shopping centre (St James) when milliband decided to show up. There were vocal supporters from both sides, a bit of jostling etc but the vast majority of the scrum was caused by the media who surrounded him as soon as word got round that he was about.

    Nothing too bad IMO, a bit heated yes but no violence. it wasn't the greatest idea to walk through one of Edinburgh's largest shopping centres tbh, it was always going to end in chaos when the worlds press are parked up just down the road at Holyrood

    Edited by Mesosphere
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    Posted
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.
  • Weather Preferences: very cold frosty days, blizzards, very hot weather, floods, storms
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.

    There is a Yes city called Dundee, but where is a No city then?

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    Posted
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft
  • Weather Preferences: Lightning, Snow
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft

    re the currency union question -

    I've read (skimmed) the white paper - but I have also read the McCrone report which is a bit more enlightening.

     

    The reason Alex Salmond won't back down on the Currency Union is because the second he does - it reduces the chances of getting it - according to the polls after the second TV debate - the majority of people voting Yes - were happy that Alex didn't back down on the currency.

     

    There isn't a question about the Currency Union from the stuff I have read (not all from the Yes campaign) because -

     

    a) England exports to Scotland (2nd biggest after the US) - do they really want to have to faff about with currency conversion?

    b) Negotations - Scotland has a LOT to negotiate with.

     

    My understanding is that the Bank of England will have control of the interest rate, but Scotland will control VAT - the white paper points to Luxemburg and Belgium which share currency but have different VAT rates.

     

    The McCrone report and several economists are all singing from the same hymn sheet about currency - a Scottish currency that was entirely Scottish controlled would increase in value against the pound too fast - making Scotlands imports cheaper - but making our Exports to England too expensive. The suggestions are that - at the very least if we went down that route - it would have to be pegged to the pound.

     

    I know we are essentially taking a leap of faith here - but my reasoning is thus -

    The SNP have so far delivered on everything they promised to deliver - even in the face of the other parties during the election campaigns claiming that the SNP couldn't deliver - there wouldn't be enough money blah blah blah. The SNP got into power and have kept their campaign promises - for me - that gives them a good track record which is incredibly refreshing in politics. The Better Together campaign are telling us we can't afford it and all manner of negative things - including that we can't have a currency union, but they can only cry wolf so many times before I basically stop believing anything they tell me. The Better Together campaign are even telling me the SNP are lying about the NHS being sold off - and yet - several posts above - I posted a video which shows they are lying about that. At this point for me - I'm willing to trust the SNP - I don't expect everything to go smoothly - of course it won't. But they have told me the least lies - so I'm trusting them.

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    At least hopefully after today, "to close to call" and "go down to the wire" can be consigned to the bin.

    Why do you say that knocker? A 2 0/0 swing is nothing compared to the last time Scotland voted.

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    Posted
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft
  • Weather Preferences: Lightning, Snow
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft

    For those thinking the outcome is a done deal -

    yesterday we had reports that MPs in Westminster were unhappy with the promises that were made to Scotland and would make sure they never got through parliament and today we have Sky News saying that 60% of Scots don't actually know what the new powers that have been promised are - http://news.sky.com/story/1337107/sky-poll-scots-unclear-over-no-vote-powers

     

    These are the things that influence last minute "don't know" voters.

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    Posted
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.
  • Weather Preferences: very cold frosty days, blizzards, very hot weather, floods, storms
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.

    If Scotland breaks away, I think Scotland probably have a conscription system for the SDF. (Scottish Defense Force) Israel and Switzerland have got its own conscription systems for example. Just an idea for indy Scotland.

     

    It be a problem solved, concerning the Armed Forces problem.

    Edited by pip22
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Why do you say that knocker? A 2 0/0 swing is nothing compared to the last time Scotland voted.

     

    It wasn't meant as a direct reference to the referendum ms but just the use of them ad infinitum.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    The forum hasn't been hijacked by anyone to stoke up resentment and in particular this thread. As the vote gets closer it is only natural that those who will get affected by the referendum vote will want to say. The difference between us is that I cannot have a say, other than in places like this, on the outcome of this vote whereas you can and yet it will affect us both.

     

    For the record, for Scotland, I am totally neutral whether it splits away or not, but for the UK, I am concerned about the negative impact that splitting the Union could bring upon us. Just because I don't live in Scotland doesn't mean that I can't raise some pertinent points and hope to gain answers on some of the more critical aspects of what occurs post split. There are many areas in the Scottish White Paper where there is a lot of ambiguity regarding post split that have not been answered - or have been left suggesting that Scotland will do one thing when it will be totally out of their hands - such as the currency.

     

    This thread has been sailing along almost like a SNP political activist thread with anyone daring to ask these questions either being drowned out, or dismissed by the sheer volume of YES posts or accused of stoking up resentment. Some of the YES posting is bordering on extremism and I don't think that is healthy in any political climate. Yes, I know that there are a lot of Scots passionate about Independence, but please tone down the rhetoric, we don't need to pictures of every yes supporters gathering - in the same way as we don't need to see all the pictures of No voters quietly going about their business at home, but whose vote is no less as important.

     

    And finally whatever the outcome I hope that Scotland can join together and can be prosperous and work alongside England, Wales and NI whether or not it is part of the Union.

     

    A very good and thoughtful post chio.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    The forum hasn't been hijacked by anyone to stoke up resentment and in particular this thread. As the vote gets closer it is only natural that those who will get affected by the referendum vote will want to say. The difference between us is that I cannot have a say, other than in places like this, on the outcome of this vote whereas you can and yet it will affect us both.

     

     

    I think while there may have been a lot of shouting from some quarters it hasn't been a smooth wall of SNP SNP SNP. There have been instances where I've asked simple questions of a poster on here and I'm still waiting for a reply. It can be difficult to engage with people who won't answer simple questions but who seem intent on stirring and not a lot more.

     

    Also, it might seem like a co-ordinated effort from the outside, but unless there's some secret SNP/indy NW club that I've never heard of or been invited to then it's simply a collection of individuals appearing as if they're all controlled Borg style from central command.

    It wasn't meant as a direct reference to the referendum ms but just the use of them ad infinitum.

     

    Maybe we'll get a new phrase after Thursday, "as close as the independence vote in 2014"...

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    Posted
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft
  • Weather Preferences: Lightning, Snow
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft

    I'm a strong Yes voter - and at times I've let things get a bit heated in debates I'll admit that. But I do find it sad that what has largely been an energetic and positive debate can so very quickly turn nasty both online and off. One of the things it appears the Scots have yet to consider is that come Friday - roughly HALF the country is going to be bitter about the outcome and everyone is going to have to accept the result and get on with things - together again.

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    Posted
  • Location: Central Falkirk
  • Location: Central Falkirk

    I'm a strong Yes voter - and at times I've let things get a bit heated in debates I'll admit that. But I do find it sad that what has largely been an energetic and positive debate can so very quickly turn nasty both online and off. One of the things it appears the Scots have yet to consider is that come Friday - roughly HALF the country is going to be bitter about the outcome and everyone is going to have to accept the result and get on with things - together again.

     Andrew, although the last few weeks have been a bit of a shock to very many Scots, who tend to the unemotional and jokey self-deprecating type, I think it's been a good thing, showing us all that we are capable of engagement when it matters enough. But the closing stages of this extraordinary marathon, although dramatic, aren't cataclysmic. Afterwards, whatever happens, I think we'll all roll up the banners and put away the badges and go back to how it was before, in terms of getting on with one another, even those we've fallen out badly with over this.

     

    It might be a bit harder after a 'yes' because of the huge changes to be wrought, but again everyone will work together to make it work, as I think our leaders will. Conversely,  if it's a 'no', those on the losing side will I think be disappointed and resigned (Scots are very good at losing, after all ;-)), but also - the activists at least - looking to the future to prepare for next time. There will be a next time, and I don't think all of these youngsters newly engaged by the events of 2014, will be prepared to wait the 'generation' suggested by AS. And I for one will look forward to next time. I might even be on the 'yes' side

    Edited by decomm18
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    Posted
  • Location: Springfield, Chelmsford, Essex 30Mtr ASL
  • Weather Preferences: snowy or sunny but not too hot!
  • Location: Springfield, Chelmsford, Essex 30Mtr ASL

    Good morning everyone both north and south of the border.

     

    Just a couple of foods for thought that I have been dwelling over the last 2 or 3 days.

    • Is being Scottish a uniform identity? Difficult to express but what I am trying attempting to write albeit not very well does someone from the a deprived area of Glasgow have much in common with someone from one of Shetland Islands, or does the former have more in common with say someone from a deprived inner city area of England? If so will there still not be divisions in the "new" Scotland?
    • Some pages back I read that 8.3% of the UK population lived in Scotland in a well researched and extremely informative posting. Unfortunately I do not have the time to go back over this thread to find it and to congratulate the poster on the high quality of what he presented. I am sure that you know who you are. Well done! It did make me look at the mathematics of it all, however. Supposing 60% of the electorate voted Yes for independence (probably an overestimation but who knows at this stage) this is only some 5% of the UK agreeing to this. In fact it is less as the population also takes into account those who are too young to vote as well as those disbarred from doing so. In other words a relatively small proportion  of the population can determine the future fate of the rest of us, with even if the vote goes against those wishing to see independence being promised all sorts of sops that the rest of us can only dream about. At the same time all the changes required to accommodate an independent Scotland will require financial input from both the public sector and companies in a myriad of ways. We will all have to pay in some way or another for this to keep a minority happy, but I guess that is democracy working at it's best, giving priority to people who consider themselves to have been poorly treated,

    Which ever way the vote goes I sincerely hope that it all goes well for the Scottish people.

     

    Kind Regards

     

    Dave

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    In case I forget later good luck to you all tomorrow and lang may your lum reek.

     

    I've not got a chimney, but thanks for the vote of good luck to everyone :D

     

    Lang may my boiler flue reek?

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    Posted
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft
  • Weather Preferences: Lightning, Snow
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft

    Good morning everyone both north and south of the border.

     

    Just a couple of foods for thought that I have been dwelling over the last 2 or 3 days.

    • Some pages back I read that 8.3% of the UK population lived in Scotland in a well researched and extremely informative posting. Unfortunately I do not have the time to go back over this thread to find it and to congratulate the poster on the high quality of what he presented. I am sure that you know who you are. Well done! It did make me look at the mathematics of it all, however. Supposing 60% of the electorate voted Yes for independence (probably an overestimation but who knows at this stage) this is only some 5% of the UK agreeing to this. In fact it is less as the population also takes into account those who are too young to vote as well as those disbarred from doing so. In other words a relatively small proportion  of the population can determine the future fate of the rest of us, with even if the vote goes against those wishing to see independence being promised all sorts of sops that the rest of us can only dream about. At the same time all the changes required to accommodate an independent Scotland will require financial input from both the public sector and companies in a myriad of ways. We will all have to pay in some way or another for this to keep a minority happy, but I guess that is democracy working at it's best, giving priority to people who consider themselves to have been poorly treated,

     

    Whilst I always suspected I was right about the UK economy - this bending over backwards from the 3 parties tells me I'm probably right - there is only one reason they would ever be in such a panic.

     

    As for a small percentage of the population being able to create such a change - it's thing people often overlook. Scotland is a Country. Scotland can leave anytime it wants - but it's better for everyone to do it democratically so that people remain friends. If Scotland had just said "right we're off" it wouldn't get very far in the world.

     

    As for everyone saying we are stronger together - the Union is a good thing - first this has been going on since at least the 70's and in 1975 when the dreaded McCrone report was published (and then sealed away) it stated the problems that was Scotland was facing and warned that if Westminster didn't act fast to address the issues with poverty and unemployment that this day would come - and instead of heeding the advice in the report successive governments have ignored it. The fact that Wales is cheering us on and hoping they can be next shows that the Union is fundamentally broken beyond repair.

     

    The McCrone report makes very interesting reading - and if you haven't read it yet here it is http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf

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    Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol

    The fact that Wales is cheering us on and hoping they can be next shows that the Union is fundamentally broken beyond repair.

     

    Where did you get that view from?

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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    This from police to press directed at no smear stories:

     

     

    To: News Editor
    Date: 17 September 2014
    Subject: Independence Referendum

    In response to increased press reports and comment implying increased crime and disorder as a consequence of the Independence Referendum Brian Docherty, Chairman of the Scottish Police Federation said;

    “The Police Service of Scotland and the men and women who work in it should not be used as a political football at any time and especially so in these last few hours of the referendum campaign.

    As I have previously stated the referendum debate has been robust but overwhelmingly good natured.

    It was inevitable that the closer we came to the 18th of September passions would increase but that does not justify the exaggerated rhetoric that is being deployed with increased frequency. Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth.

    Scotland’s citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding and tolerant and it is preposterous to imply that by placing a cross in a box, our citizens will suddenly abandon the personal virtues and values held dear to them all.

    At this time it is more important than ever that individuals be they politicians, journalists or whoever should carefully consider their words, maintain level heads and act with respect. Respect is not demonstrated by suggesting a minority of mindless idiots are representative of anything. One of the many joys of this campaign has been how it has awakened political awareness across almost every single section of society. The success enjoyed by the many should not be sullied by the actions of the few.

    Police officers must be kept free from the distractions of rhetoric better suited to the playground that the political stump. If crime has been committed it will be investigated and dealt with appropriately but quite simply police officers have better things to do than officiate in spats on social media and respond to baseless speculation of the potential for disorder on and following polling dayâ€

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    Posted
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft
  • Weather Preferences: Lightning, Snow
  • Location: Scottish Borders (SE) 150m/492ft

    Where did you get that view from?

     

    Well apart from the news,

    Apart from Welsh people posting videos on YouTube cheering us on - like Rhys Ifans

    Apart from various independence webpages springing up like this one http://www.welshindependence.net/

    And apart from Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood joining Alex Salmond in Scotland to help convince the Scottish People to vote Yes.

     

    Generally because I know people in Wales and they tell me.

    but here you go - 11 hours ago - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2014/sep/16/plaid-cymru-wales-scotland-independence-video

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Well apart from the news,

    Apart from Welsh people posting videos on YouTube cheering us on - like Rhys Ifans

    Apart from various independence webpages springing up like this one http://www.welshindependence.net/

    And apart from Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood joining Alex Salmond in Scotland to help convince the Scottish People to vote Yes.

     

    Generally because I know people in Wales and they tell me.

    but here you go - 11 hours ago - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2014/sep/16/plaid-cymru-wales-scotland-independence-video

    So you're getting this from Welsh nationalists, personal anecdote, pro-nationalist websites, and youtube? I don't think that's a particularly telling sample.

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Duddingston, Edinburgh
  • Location: Duddingston, Edinburgh

    Afterwards, whatever happens, I think we'll all roll up the banners and put away the badges and go back to how it was before, in terms of getting on with one another, even those we've fallen out badly with over this.

     

    Im not sure i agree, the very fact it so close shows how divided the country is and the rhetoric has been getting steadily more aggressive as the vote gets closer. As an example if No win by a narrow margin (as i hope they will and as per the polls) do we think all these yes voters who have become so emotionally invested and energised by this process will just accept it? I fear there will be protests, disorder etc and a huge wailing around the MSM, Campaign lies, Westminster etc

     

    Whichever way this goes there will have to be a big repair job on the losing side who will feel immensely disaffected and concerned - and i'd wager even if it is No the debate on the state of the UK and the status Quo will have consequences across the rest of the country as well

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