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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Walsall Wood, Walsall, West Midlands 145m ASL
  • Location: Walsall Wood, Walsall, West Midlands 145m ASL

    No St Piran's cross is not featured on the union flag. The union of 1707 was between the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England which included Wales. Wales was/is a principality not a kingdom which was annexed by Edward I. Henry VIII integrated Wales as a legal part of the kingdom of England by the statutes of Wales acts in the 1500s (not sure of the exact dates). He also raised Ireland from the status of a lordship (which was a gift from the pope to Henry II) to a kingdom after the English reformation so as to deny the pope giving the title 'lord of Ireland' to anyone else (like the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V) after the seperation of the church of England from the Roman catholic church. Henchforth whoever was the monarch of England would be the monarch of Ireland aswell. Then when the Tudor line died with Elizabeth I in 1603 her cousin the Stuart king of Scots James VI inherited the English and Irish thrones (aswell as the English claim to the French throne, which goes back to Edward III and was finally dropped by George III after the French revolution) as James I and moved his court from Edinburgh to London. This event was known as the union of the crowns, yet England (including Wales) Scotland and Ireland still remained separte political entities (though this was limited in Ireland's case). James himself was the first to suggest a union of England and Scotland and always since his inheritance of the English throne refered to himself as king of Great Britain, yet the parliamentarians in both kingdoms wouldn't allow it as Scotland didn't want to give up her soverighnty and the English wern't prepared to give the Scots equal citizenship. When James's son Charles I came to the throne in 1625 he also wanted a political union between Scotland and England. One of his first steps in acheiving this goal was the imposition of the English prayer book on the Scottish kirk or church which disastourously backfired with the 'Bishops war'. Not to mention the trouble that was brewing with the English parliament which was suspended for 11 years and was only called back so he could finance his war against the Scottish covenanters. Yet they insisted on voicing their dissatifactions and Charles dissolved parliament again leading to him making peace with the Scots and the 'English civil war'. The covenanters (Scots presbytarians) flitted from side to side and eventually the parliamentarians won and Charles was executed in 1649. This led to the whole of the British isles becoming a republic under the military dictatorship of Oliver Cromwell. After his death in 1658 the monarchy was finally restored in 1660 under Charles II along with the previous status of the 3 kingdoms. However anti catholic bigotry was rampant in these times and when it was discovered that Charles's brother and heir James, Duke of York (Duke of Albany in Scotland) was a catholic convert there was a move to remove him from the succession, which led to the first political parties in England. He was opposed by the 'whigs' who were characterised as anti French and pro parliament and supported by the 'tories' who were little Englanders aswell as pro established church and believed in the divine right of kings. Anyway Chales managed to defeat the whig position and when he died in 1685 James succeded peacefully to the throne as James II of England and Ireland/ VII of Scots. His insistance on giving equal rights to catholics and protestant dissenters was untolerated and several English aristocrats invited his Dutch son in law/nephew William of Orange to invade England in 1688, an event known as 'the glorious revolution'. After he landed James attempted to flee to the French court of Louis XIV where he and his catholic male line descendants the Jacobite claimants were sure of support. His first attempt failed when he was captued by some fishermen and sent back to London. William let him go again (not wishing to make him a martyr). This leads to one of the reasons the union of 1707 occured. James's youngest protestant descendant William, Duke of Gloucester (son of Queen Anne) died in 1700 aged 11 which led to a succession crisis. After William lll/II and Mary II were placed on the English throne in 1689 the English parliament brought forward a bill called 'the bill of rights' (which is still in force) that not only established the superioriry of parliament but also ensured the English monarch could neither be a catholic or be married to a catholic. However with the young Dukes death the closest protestant relative in the line of succession after Anne was a grandaughter of James VI/I, Sophia, Electress of Hanover. This led to the 'Act of Settlement' of 1701 which skipped over something like 50 individuals who had a stronger hereditary claim in favour of Sophia and the heirs of her body. All this was done without consulting the Estates of Scotland. When the 'Darian scheme' (Scotland's attempt at establishing a colony/trade routes) failed and the investors went bankrupt (thanks for the correction Scottish skier) union was now considered. Scotland was always free before this point to choose whoever it wanted to succeed Queen Anne and many in England feared they would choose her half brother James Stuart 'the old pretender' which they also feared would restore 'the auld alliance' and make Scotland the back door for a French Catholic invasion led by Louis XIV. One of the conditions of the union was that Scotland would addopt the 1701 act and put this threat to bed (except for the failed Jacobite uprisings of 1715 and 1745). So as you can see the union was created out of the religous divisions of earlier times of which Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland (epitomised by the sectarianism of some Rangers and Celtic supporters, much to their shame) are still something of a sympton.

    Edited by WALSALL SNOW
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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    When the 'Darian scheme' (Scotland's attempt at building an empire) failed and the country went bankrupt union was now considered.

    Good summary. The above is the only bit I'll pull you up on.... http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.png

    The goal of the Darien Scheme was not ostensibly to build an 'empire', but to potentially establish an overland trade route to the pacific, i.e. a pre-panama canal thingy. The long term idea was that it could avoid having to go around South America via the very dangerous Cape Horn, whereby speeding up trade with the pacific area.

    A tad too far ahead of its time....It was not well planned and disease played a big role in the failure. However, the other major factor which made success impossible was that it was blockaded from the start by England (navy) and they also banned investment from people in England and the netherlands; the latter being a major trading partner of Scotland at that time.

    The only people it really bankrupted were the rich landowning Scots who had put their money into it. The Tories of the time if you like. The average Scot lost nothing and the rich burghs (semi independent towns) lost nothing. There was no need for the union financially - Scotland was not 'bankrupt', at least in the modern sense; it had taken a hit, but not one which it could not 'survive' (to use current mantra). However, it was the rich landowners who had most of the votes and they were given large bribes to pass the treaty of union. They were 'The parcel of rogues in a nation' that Burns wrote of. Hence the countrywide rioting/protests that went on for many months after, with the army finally having to be called in to control things.

    EDIT. Of course in the end there was little Scotland could do in terms of competing with its neighbour 10x the size. Ergo, it was better to at least be involved and make the most of the British empire growth. Although as we all know, the empire was of great benefit to the rich in the UK, but much less so for the poor. It was a true Tory enterprise!

    -----------------------

    EDIT. And jumping forward 300+ years.....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-17310549

    MP Eric Joyce given bar ban and £3,000 fine over Commons brawl

    And he's apparently not planning on resigning as an MP. Been criminally convicted twice now, first for failing to provide a breath specimen, then for drunken fighting. £3k is nothing - probably put it on expenses. I mean he's claimed over £1m already; 3k is small change. http://en.wikipedia....Expenses_claims

    When he drunkenly shouted at the police "You can't touch me, I'm an MP." he was essentially telling the truth. I'm sure the people of Falkirk will be overjoyed to have him continue to represent them until 2015.

    --------------------

    EDIT2.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-17314545

    Scots offer to send water to aid drought-hit England

    Boris Johnson's plan is based on a plan first proposed in 1942 by J F Pownall.

    He suggested a canal could be built along a natural 'contour' down the spine of England, around the 300ft (100m) level, from the Scottish borders to the south east.

    Mr Neil [scottish Infrastructure Minister], has a more modern solution: "High Speed Rail may provide opportunities for joint working on the necessary infrastructure," he said.

    "Our Hydro Nation agenda is ambitious and offers huge opportunities in this area. That means helping out others where possible, and I am willing to make that happen, if the UK Government is too."

    However, his proposal may hit the buffers as the Westminster government's plans for HS2 see it running only between London and Birmingham.

    To ensure water pipes laid alongside could carry surplus Scottish water would mean extending the railway to Scotland - something the SNP want, but which the UK coalition government has so far resisted.

    Well, water is not something Scotland is short of, that's for sure!

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    SS should Charles Lyell get a mention as well?

    of course he gets the nod.

    Did a great deal for getting this across..

    the present is the key to the past

    http://en.wikipedia....iformitarianism

    EDIT and I recal answering this Q in my final geol exam:

    Is the present the key to the past or is it all a pandora's box?

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Interesting contrast between the Scottish Labour conference in dundee the other week (that's eds keynote btw):

    Posted Image

    http://wingsland.pod...th-through-joy/

    And the SNP spring conference in Glasgow this weekend. Bursting at the seams; 4 overflow halls needed.

    Various speeches here: http://www.youtube.c...er/TAofMoridura

    Here's AS's:

    http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH8e-clvf0A

    post-9421-0-16524100-1331497081_thumb.jp

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    Yes do not under estimate how low the Scottish Labour party are. They really are now irrelevent in Scotland. To be honest their attitude has still not changed since they were defeated in May last year. Still at the sidelines protesting about everything but offering no alternatives. And yes I will say it they are anti Scottish!

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    Posted
  • Location: Walsall Wood, Walsall, West Midlands 145m ASL
  • Location: Walsall Wood, Walsall, West Midlands 145m ASL

    Hi November13. Try to see that there is a difference between anti independance/pro union and anti Scottish. Otherwise you fall into a situation like in Northern Ireland whereby you practically aren't allowed to feel Irish unless you support nationalism/republicanism and it just creates unnecessary identity issues. In Northern Ireland unionists prefer to call themselves British or Ulster Scots and rarely Irish. It wasn't always this way and some nationalists there maintain that only they can be Irish because they support a united republican Ireland.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I know where you are coming from – yes, believing in Scotland remaining part of the union is not by default anti Scottish. However, with respect to the Labour party (and the Tories, and to an increasing extent the Liberals) consider this:

    In 1979, it was Labour that overruled the YES result in the referendum on Scottish devolution, even though there was a respectable turnout and a clear majority in support.

    Polls have consistently shown that a majority of Scots wish a referendum on independence (even if to say no and simply to settle the matter); Labour have never supported holding such a referendum.

    ~70% of Scots favour devo maxx/FFA. Labour do not support this.

    Just a few examples, but this certainly does not confer an impression of Labour being ‘pro-Scottish’, but rather that they consistently act against the wishes of the majority of the Scottish electorate.

    A pro-Scottish party would have recognised the 1979 result. Likewise, they would have supported a referendum on independence even if they then campaigned for Scotland to stay in the union. As the supposed ‘party of devolution’, should Labour not be supporting Devo Maxx given it is the wish of the vast majority of Scottish people, even a large % (~60%) of their own Scots voters?

    If they are not pro-Scottish, then what are they? Anti-choice yes. Anti-democratic, yes historically. Anti-Scottish? Well, you can see how people might get that impression. Certainly, their demise as Scotland’s first party is intimately linked to this.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
    Couldn't have put it better myself. Yes you can be pro - union without being anti Scottish. However labour's tone and behaviour indicates they will do anything to stop Scotland progressing!
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    A Tory peer talking sense? Wonders will never cease. http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.png

    http://www.huffingto...731.html?ref=uk

    Scottish Independence Vote: The UK's Breakup Is Inevitable, Warns Lord Peter Fraser

    Nothing will stop Scotland from becoming an independent nation, a Tory peer has warned, questioning whether fighting to keep the union together is worth the effort.

    Lord Fraser, a former minister in John Major's government, has launched a pamphlet with the think-tank Politeia. In it he writes: “All empirical evidence points to a break-upâ€, and he criticises the “little fresh thinking†among unionist politicians, warning that “the status quo points only to disasterâ€.

    Yep, the basic facts show that this is what is going to happen.

    There is no reason for the Union anymore. That purpose died when the sun finally set on the empire in 1997. That’s why the unionist parties can’t put forward a positive case for the union - there isn’t one; not in current form at least. I mean if there was a referendum tomorrow asking the residents of an independent Scotland if they wanted to give up the vast majority of the powers of their parliament to one based in London where their vote share was only 8.4%, do you think they’d vote for that?

    70% of Scots want Holyrood to govern just about every aspect of life in Scotland, collecting and spending all taxes, managing natural resources, the economy etc in a modern, transparent, PR-type democracy, with only defence and foreign relations being a matter for UK-wide co-operative management, i.e. Devo Maxx/FFA.

    If that’s not on the ballot, they will vote yes to independence, and the latter might get a majority even with the former as an option.

    It’s just the way things are and Lord Fraser knows it.

    -----------------------------------

    EDIT

    http://newsnetscotla...ailout-headline

    BBC. State TV, but of the highest quality.

    Original headline:

    Posted Image

    Of course she said no such thing....

    And now it has been quietly corrected to the below and filed away....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-17325032

    Oh what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive....

    post-9421-0-99073800-1331588848_thumb.jp

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    I love how they assume that RBS would have kept its headquarters in Edinburgh were it independent.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I love how they assume that RBS would have kept its headquarters in Edinburgh were it independent.

    Yes, we have absolutely no idea.

    And of course it begs the question when exactly did this unionist hypothetical independent Scotland become independent? In the 1920's along with Eire? Maybe in the 1980's following initial devolution in 1979 and Scotland now had it's own version of Statoil + fund? Maybe a storm destroyed the blockading English navy around Darien, allowing it to prosper, leading to Scotland not joining the union and starting a successfull empire in this fantasy 'if Scotland had been independent when' parallel universe. http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.png

    The BBC Pacific Quay are good at the above (twisting a story, then fixing it and relegating to somewhere hard to find following complaints), populated as they are by so many from the Labour party. Non-payment of the license fee is becoming increasingly common north of the Border and is not chased when people state 'not impartial' as the reason.

    I must admit I thought it took a bit of time for WS to enter the fray.

    LOL.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    Your article merely affirms what I have suspected for a long time. I listen to BBC Newsdrive in the morning. Whenever they talk about independence they try and push whoever they are interviewing from whatever walk of life into a negative reaction to independence. I thought it was my pro-independence bias. But alas it is true the BBC in Scotland are an absolute disgrace! They come across as anti independence when they are supposed to be impartial or pro Scottish as we pay their wages!

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    Posted
  • Location: Odiham, Hampshire
  • Location: Odiham, Hampshire

    Couldn't have put it better myself. Yes you can be pro - union without being anti Scottish. However labour's tone and behaviour indicates they will do anything to stop Scotland progressing!

    The real question is can you be pro - independence and anti long-term poverty.

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    Posted
  • Location: Odiham, Hampshire
  • Location: Odiham, Hampshire

    Your article merely affirms what I have suspected for a long time. I listen to BBC Newsdrive in the morning. Whenever they talk about independence they try and push whoever they are interviewing from whatever walk of life into a negative reaction to independence. I thought it was my pro-independence bias. But alas it is true the BBC in Scotland are an absolute disgrace! They come across as anti independence when they are supposed to be impartial or pro Scottish as we pay their wages!

    You don't really pay their wages though do you? As with lots of things in Scotland, BBC Scotland is subsidised by the English. In this case the English licence fee payers.

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    Posted
  • Location: Odiham, Hampshire
  • Location: Odiham, Hampshire

    Hi November13. Try to see that there is a difference between anti independance/pro union and anti Scottish. Otherwise you fall into a situation like in Northern Ireland whereby you practically aren't allowed to feel Irish unless you support nationalism/republicanism and it just creates unnecessary identity issues. In Northern Ireland unionists prefer to call themselves British or Ulster Scots and rarely Irish. It wasn't always this way and some nationalists there maintain that only they can be Irish because they support a united republican Ireland.

    A very interesting point WS. It is possible that the Independence debate in Scotland could have disastrous consequences in terms of sectarian strife.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Were doing really nicely up to 2010, running at a good surplus:

    http://www.scotland....010/06/23103654

    Minimum of 9.6% of taxes to the treasury this year, 9.3% sent back. Oil price crash caused a modest deficit but we should be back into the black in 2011-12. A tough year; pity we didn’t have the surplus from previous ones to hand. Save in the good years for a rainy day and all that!

    http://www.scotland....ns/2012/03/9525

    Union = 3% loss in population in the middle of an oil bonanza; quite incredible. I wonder where all those hundreds of billions went? Maybe the UK has stashed some of it away in a wee sovereign wealth fund like Norway or Saudi Arabia?

    Posted Image

    Now recovered, with the recovery begining with the opening of the Scottish Parliament.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.heraldsco...ear-up.17003481

    Last night, David Mundell, the Scotland Office Minister, told The Herald: "The cross-party campaign will make the positive case for Scotland staying in Britain. It will be entirely positive, focusing on the benefits Scotland gets in staying in the UK. It will be bringing people from all parties and none to make that case."

    Another one to add to the Positive Case for the Union Watch:

    http://wingsland.pod...he-union-watch/

    TIME ELAPSED: 32 years, 0 months

    ACTUAL SIGHTINGS OF POSITIVE CASE FOR UNION TO DATE: 0

    Anyone who suggests 'sectarian strife' knows as much about Scotland as Dave does. It appears he didn't even realise, nor did is PR people. :doh:

    Posted Image

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: @scotlandwx
  • Weather Preferences: Crystal Clear High Pressure & Blue Skies
  • Location: @scotlandwx

    I haven't watched the You Tube vids of the SNP conference yet, instead viewed the Twitter output unravel with the sound bites.

    Simply put the SNP is the most switched on media savvy marketing machine in UK Politics, the other parties are at a stand still, especially in Scotland. Am further confident that some of the ideals resonate with others in the UK, practical, sensible and forward looking.

    As with lots of things in Scotland, BBC Scotland is subsidised by the English.

    Care to elucidate??

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    A very interesting point WS. It is possible that the Independence debate in Scotland could have disastrous consequences in terms of sectarian strife.

    That really is a load of twoddle. Not only that it could set SS off on another lecture tour and another quote from WS. http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png

    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    Too many English trolls on here. Their favourite word : "Subsidy".blah blah blah...wake me up when you have the figures to prove anything. Come the revolution we will see! Until then carry on with your myth!

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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    A very interesting point WS. It is possible that the Independence debate in Scotland could have disastrous consequences in terms of sectarian strife.

    Oh you are so off the mark. The reason Ulster Unionists want to be British is because they don't like the Irish.They spent years fighting them. And now we are to believe they want to be Irish but can't. You are just a ridiculous individual.

    Edited by November13
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Too many English trolls on here.

    Only really one or two posters I'd class as trolls, that's the nice thing about NW... http://cdn.nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Oh, here we go.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17365363

    Labour loses majority on Glasgow City Council

    Labour has lost its majority on Glasgow City Council after another resignation over de-selected candidates.

    Shaukat Butt is the seventh councillor to resign from the ruling Labour group, along with six who were de-selected ahead of May's council elections.

    All rather messy in crumbling fort glasgow.

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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    Labour are not fit to govern anyone at present.

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