Jump to content
Cold?
Local
Radar
Snow?

Scottish Politics 2011-2017


Recommended Posts

Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    The Union of 1707 is over. It is time to build a new order for these islands in peace and civility. So no more shouting, lets get on with it.

    Scotland is independent.

    • Like 3
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Spotted a post you think may be an issue? Please help the team by reporting it.
    • Replies 30.9k
    • Created
    • Last Reply

    Top Posters In This Topic

    • Scottish-Irish Skier

      8874

    • mountain shadow

      1528

    • skifreak

      1435

    • frogesque

      1306

    Top Posters In This Topic

    Popular Posts

    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

    Posted Images

    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    The Union of 1707 is over. It is time to build a new order for these islands in peace and civility. So no more shouting, lets get on with it.

    Scotland is independent.

    Bit premature I think!

     

    As several posters have pointed out I think about the only thing that may scupper the Yes campaign is it's inability to convince the very significant numbers of older (less vocal) voters.

    Given how divided Scotland is on independence I wonder how unsettling and uncertain the coming few years will be, whatever the result. 

    • Like 4
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    The Union of 1707 is over. It is time to build a new order for these islands in peace and civility. So no more shouting, lets get on with it.

    Scotland is independent.

     

    dont-count-those-chickens.jpg?w=584&h=30

    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    Newsnet are covering a story from a radio 4 programme, that there will be no new powers devolved to Scotland in the event of a "no" vote!

    What Christopher Chope is saying, that there are enough backbench Torys that do not want further devolution given to Scotland and that Westminister can only give Scotland more powers. 

     

    Challenged by the presenter that it would not be no change, Chope replied: "It will be, because we can't change the constitution without the approval of the United Kingdom Parliament and that seems to have been lost in this debate."

     

    http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/9736-we-will-block-more-powers-warns-tory-mp

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    Newsnet are covering a story from a radio 4 programme, that there will be no new powers devolved to Scotland in the event of a "no" vote!

    What Christopher Chope is saying, that there are enough backbench Torys that do not want further devolution given to Scotland and that Westminister can only give Scotland more powers. 

     

    Challenged by the presenter that it would not be no change, Chope replied: "It will be, because we can't change the constitution without the approval of the United Kingdom Parliament and that seems to have been lost in this debate."

     

    http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/9736-we-will-block-more-powers-warns-tory-mp

    Given that Labour and Libs back more powers how are Tory backbenchers going to stop anything, we'd have to believe then that Tory backbenchers suddenly make up the entire Tory party. Christopher Chope is talking nonsense. Westminster has no choice but to offer more powers in the event of a No vote, the question isn't that they won't offer those powers but do the powers go far enough.

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Given that Labour and Libs back more powers how are Tory backbenchers going to stop anything, we'd have to believe then that Tory backbenchers suddenly make up the entire Tory party. Christopher Chope is talking nonsense. Westminster has no choice but to offer more powers in the event of a No vote, the question isn't that they won't offer those powers but do the powers go far enough.

     

    I think he's talking to his own constituents, what do you think?

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Peterborough
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and frost in the winter. Hot and sunny, thunderstorms in the summer.
  • Location: Peterborough

    Given that Labour and Libs back more powers how are Tory backbenchers going to stop anything, we'd have to believe then that Tory backbenchers suddenly make up the entire Tory party. Christopher Chope is talking nonsense. Westminster has no choice but to offer more powers in the event of a No vote, the question isn't that they won't offer those powers but do the powers go far enough.

    Given a general election is approaching, if the general consensus south of the border is against further Scottish devolution, then any MP which backs this could be out of a job. Would they take the risk?

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: @scotlandwx
  • Weather Preferences: Crystal Clear High Pressure & Blue Skies
  • Location: @scotlandwx

    Given a general election is approaching, if the general consensus south of the border is against further Scottish devolution, then any MP which backs this could be out of a job. Would they take the risk?

     

    Great point, you can upgrade this from MP to political party, no political party is going to put further devolution on their manifesto..

     

    As Iain McWhirter wrote last night - DevoMax ( albeit misnomer in any case) is on the ballot paper on Thursday, you can find it by putting a cross in the No box..

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    I think he's talking to his own constituents, what do you think?

    The guys an idiot, can't he do basic maths? To believe that Tory backbenchers can prevent legislation is laughable given the current make up at Westminster, especially as Labour and Libs will back powers.

    Perhaps you're right he was just trying to look big and powerful to his constituents but really you'd think making those comments at this time is an own goal. Good for Yes though, I'm sure this will get lots of coverage.

    Edited by nick sussex
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Given a general election is approaching, if the general consensus south of the border is against further Scottish devolution, then any MP which backs this could be out of a job. Would they take the risk?

    ....I can see UKIP getting some mileage out of this.

    Edited by Kiwi
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Irlam
  • Location: Irlam

    The guys an idiot, can't he do basic maths? To believe that Tory backbenchers can prevent legislation is laughable given the current make up at Westminster, especially as Labour and Libs will back powers.

    Perhaps you're right he was just trying to look big and powerful to his constituents but really you'd think making those comments at this time is an own goal. Good for Yes though, I'm sure this will get lots of coverage.

    I think what he really means, it hasn't been discussed in parliament, which he is correct. It's parliament to discuss not to be a rubber stamp to this.

    Also the imbalance as regards to England will increase. If you look at the current situation, England has a democratic deficit, IMO. Giving Scotland further powers than the rest of the UK has to be address and especially England.

    I saw a Labour Shadow minister, the other day, trying to tackle the West Lothian question, she was floundering.

    That has to be addressed.

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    I think what he really means, it hasn't been discussed in parliament, which he is correct. It's parliament to discuss not to be a rubber stamp to this.

    Also the imbalance as regards to England will increase. If you look at the current situation, England has a democratic deficit, IMO. Giving Scotland further powers than the rest of the UK has to be address and especially England.

    I saw a Labour Shadow minister, the other day, trying to tackle the West Lothian question, she was floundering.

    That has to be addressed.

     

    It's so obvious that the WLQ needs to be addressed in the event of a NO vote. I'm a hardcore supporter of independence but anyone can see that there is a huge democratic deficit for those living in England. It should be more of an issue, why isn't it more of an issue? It's surely not rocket science to solve the question, or at least strongly mitigate the effects?

    • Like 1
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Irlam
  • Location: Irlam

    It's so obvious that the WLQ needs to be addressed in the event of a NO vote. I'm a hardcore supporter of independence but anyone can see that there is a huge democratic deficit for those living in England. It should be more of an issue, why isn't it more of an issue? It's surely not rocket science to solve the question, or at least strongly mitigate the effects?

    Let's say Scotland says No and she gets Devo Max but nothing is done with the rest of the UK. Labour wins a future election whose leader and therefore the PM represents a Scottish constituency.

    Can you have a Scottish MP being in charge of the Treasury, Health, Communities, Social Services?

    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    In terms of media coverage, this thread on another forum, tends to debunk a lot of the comments on here.

     

    http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2010053

     

    It seems to me the Pro Independence think the BBC coverage is anti Independence and the Better Together campaign think it is Pro Independence.

     

    http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1932702&highlight=bbc+scotland+independence

     

    Quote

     

    " As soon as I see a source that is a link to newsnetscotland I go the next post, they are just propaganda for the SNP along with a few other sites. "

    Edited by J10
    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    Let's say Scotland says No and she gets Devo Max but nothing is done with the rest of the UK. Labour wins a future election whose leader and therefore the PM represents a Scottish constituency.

    Can you have a Scottish MP being in charge of the Treasury, Health, Communities, Social Services?

     

    There is another question here though, in the event of a Yes vote, there are issues with England wanting a Tory Government and possibly getting on and Wales wanting a Labour Government  but getting a Tory one due to the number of English MPs. There really is a huge political divide between all the Nations of the UK and also within England itself, this is something that does need to be looked at regardless of a Yes / No Vote/

    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    I think what he really means, it hasn't been discussed in parliament, which he is correct. It's parliament to discuss not to be a rubber stamp to this.

    Also the imbalance as regards to England will increase. If you look at the current situation, England has a democratic deficit, IMO. Giving Scotland further powers than the rest of the UK has to be address and especially England.

    I saw a Labour Shadow minister, the other day, trying to tackle the West Lothian question, she was floundering.

    That has to be addressed.

    That was my take on this too. Parliament is where democracy takes place. The promises by the main three No parties of more devolved power, is that, just promises.

     

    I remember promising my boys a holiday, my car went seriously wrong, such is life, and I had to reneigh on that promise due to lack of funds. Likewise the UK Government may decided after a No vote that they would like to join in the fight against ISIS, and say sorry Scotland, but we have more pressing needs at the moment and we could really do with keeping the tax receipts afterall...but we promise we will look at it again after you vote for us in the next election...promise! 

     

    Once HOC and HOL have taken their toll on the promises and made concessions to meet each others political requirements, Scotland will be lucky to have been devolved the power to use screwdrivers. I know that I come across as being cynical but that is the reality in the current UK political arena. If politicians can not tackle the WLQ or the HOL question, what chance has Scotland got.

    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

     

    That was my take on this too. Parliament is where democracy takes place. The promises by the main three No parties of more devolved power, is that, just promises.

     

    I remember promising my boys a holiday, my car went seriously wrong, such is life, and I had to reneigh on that promise due to lack of funds. Likewise the UK Government may decided after a No vote that they would like to join in the fight against ISIS, and say sorry Scotland, but we have more pressing needs at the moment and we could really do with keeping the tax receipts afterall...but we promise we will look at it again after you vote for us in the next election...promise! 

     

    Once HOC and HOL have taken their toll on the promises and made concessions to meet each others political requirements, Scotland will be lucky to have been devolved the power to use screwdrivers. I know that I come across as being cynical but that is the reality in the current UK political arena. If politicians can not tackle the WLQ or the HOL question, what chance has Scotland got.

    But if all 3 parties sign up to it, then it will go through. It would be a manifesto pledge across the board. You might get some backbench rebellion, but it would never be enough to scupper it.

    • Like 1
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    J10 your argument might have some credence if there was a balanced media in Scotland. 90% of msm in Scotland is not owned in Scotland and every paper other than the Sunday Herald is pro union. You have to live and work here to really understand the bias. As for BBC you are kidding yourself. They have been blatantly propping up the no campaign. Yesterday when there were thousands of Yes supporters on Buchanan Street they chose a picture of half a dozen outside a shop at the very bottom of the street. Every other picture showed a mass of people taking up the entire street. Then we have the leak from the treasury about RBS broadcast by them. They are currently trying to deny this but its another cover up. We also had a professor at one of our universities challenging them about their bias and they just brushed him away and tried to defame him. Finally its the British Broadcasting corporation and they are acting for the Westminster establishment. We saw that with the Commonwealth games bus loads of London presenters shipped up to cover our games but no Scots other than Hazel Irvine. I felt I was watching my own games as a foreigner it was just wrong. The presenters made a point of calling the athletes British at every chance instead of the independent sporting nations they were representing. BBC is just downright disgraceful and our printed media is worse. The only truth for Yes people is online. Don't knock online sites because that is the only information we can rely on without the media anti Scottish spin. I make no apologies I am defending Scotland from being defamed and trashed at every turn. Its not your fault its just the feed that has been given to those south of the border for generations that we are all subsidy junkies and anti English. Come up to Scotland and see for yourself the Yes campaign is about creating something better not tribal nationalism.

    • Like 2
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon

    J10 your argument might have some credence if there was a balanced media in Scotland. 90% of msm in Scotland is not owned in Scotland and every paper other than the Sunday Herald is pro union. You have to live and work here to really understand the bias. As for BBC you are kidding yourself. They have been blatantly propping up the no campaign. Yesterday when there were thousands of Yes supporters on Buchanan Street they chose a picture of half a dozen outside a shop at the very bottom of the street. Every other picture showed a mass of people taking up the entire street. Then we have the leak from the treasury about RBS broadcast by them. They are currently trying to deny this but its another cover up. We also had a professor at one of our universities challenging them about their bias and they just brushed him away and tried to defame him. Finally its the British Broadcasting corporation and they are acting for the Westminster establishment. We saw that with the Commonwealth games bus loads of London presenters shipped up to cover our games but no Scots other than Hazel Irvine. I felt I was watching my own games as a foreigner it was just wrong. The presenters made a point of calling the athletes British at every chance instead of the independent sporting nations they were representing. BBC is just downright disgraceful and our printed media is worse. The only truth for Yes people is online. Don't knock online sites because that is the only information we can rely on without the media anti Scottish spin. I make no apologies I am defending Scotland from being defamed and trashed at every turn. Its not your fault its just the feed that has been given to those south of the border for generations that we are all subsidy junkies and anti English. Come up to Scotland and see for yourself the Yes campaign is about creating something better not tribal nationalism.

     

    So, if you're right and the number of people on rally reflects the popular will, what will the final outcome be in percentages - 70-30?

     

    I say it has (surely) to be within 60-40 one way or the other, and almost certainly closer? OK, Yes can organise marches but to show vast Yes marches beside small No gathering would also, surely be biased give that it's is clear the vote will be close? Or do people not marching not count?

    • Like 1
    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    J10 your argument might have some credence if there was a balanced media in Scotland. 90% of msm in Scotland is not owned in Scotland and every paper other than the Sunday Herald is pro union. You have to live and work here to really understand the bias. As for BBC you are kidding yourself. They have been blatantly propping up the no campaign. Yesterday when there were thousands of Yes supporters on Buchanan Street they chose a picture of half a dozen outside a shop at the very bottom of the street. Every other picture showed a mass of people taking up the entire street. Then we have the leak from the treasury about RBS broadcast by them. They are currently trying to deny this but its another cover up. We also had a professor at one of our universities challenging them about their bias and they just brushed him away and tried to defame him. Finally its the British Broadcasting corporation and they are acting for the Westminster establishment. We saw that with the Commonwealth games bus loads of London presenters shipped up to cover our games but no Scots other than Hazel Irvine. I felt I was watching my own games as a foreigner it was just wrong. The presenters made a point of calling the athletes British at every chance instead of the independent sporting nations they were representing. BBC is just downright disgraceful and our printed media is worse. The only truth for Yes people is online. Don't knock online sites because that is the only information we can rely on without the media anti Scottish spin. I make no apologies I am defending Scotland from being defamed and trashed at every turn. Its not your fault its just the feed that has been given to those south of the border for generations that we are all subsidy junkies and anti English. Come up to Scotland and see for yourself the Yes campaign is about creating something better not tribal nationalism.

     

    People on one side of the Pro side will say one thing and those on the Anti side will say another. I am not deluding myself I am just being impartial, as to be honest I have some sympathy with those in favour of Scottish Independence, being Welsh myself.

     

    A bit more on the stance of different newspapers on the issue. http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/sep/10/rupert-murdoch-scottish-independence

     

    Quite often people claiming media bias, really are not liking that someone says something different. and that their personal bias is not reflected by the media. Perhaps you should go onto those threads on Digital Spy which I linked to in my post to take issue with those who make those posts above seeing as you feel so strongly about the issue.

     

    I also think that your post is somewhat confrontational and my brief foray into these thread will be short given this "welcome".

    Edited by J10
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: Central Falkirk
  • Location: Central Falkirk

    I also think that your post is somewhat confrontational and my brief foray into these thread will be short given this "welcome".

     

    Don't take it personally J10, I think November is just very passionate about what he believes, and that's what comes over in what he writes and his style. There is undoubtedly bias in the media up here, and I don't think the BBC has been quite so impartial as it might have been. What an individual believes about the essential question - i.e. is independence as it is on offer now, right for Scotland?  will shape that person's view on whether BBC reporting is neutral / factual or biassed.

     

    If yes loses on Thursday (and I hope they do, for reasons I've already articulated) it will be because they've failed to get their message across effectively to all sections of the Scottish electorate, in terms that people can believe and embrace. Again, as I posted yesterday, their biggest failure will have been in persuading the older half of the population that what they're proposing is 'best'. Mainstream  media hasn't helped them, and the more successful approach via new media - the 'Wings' site and others - just won't reach the old, ever.

     

    So for next time, 'Yes' will need to try to change tactics, and to persuade at least a significant section of the MSM to be explicit in support. In my view, if the message is  compelling enough, that effort will succeed. But  there are too many important flaws in the current offering from 'Yes' for that to ever have been the case, since 2011. I think, if 'no' wins, 'Yes' will learn those lessons quickly, and for next time round, they'll do much better.

    Edited by decomm18
    • Like 2
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: @scotlandwx
  • Weather Preferences: Crystal Clear High Pressure & Blue Skies
  • Location: @scotlandwx

    @ J10 I don't see November13 as being deliberately confrontational with his reply. Of course you are welcome to this thread !

     

    wrt BBC Bias, I think that what November13 is trying to put over, with some degree of passion, is that there has been a complete media onslaught, I had a look through the digital spy thread and can readily disagree with a lot of the opinion on that thread.

     

    This may be of interest, and whilst not recent, is some good analysis on the subject. I would add the caveat that if this was replicated for the last 2 months or so you would find the results far more definitive. 

     

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report

     

    Comparing Reporting Scotland with STV News, the former seems less balanced and fair to the Yes campaign if only in the tendency to give pro-independence statements a greater frequency of opening and closing debates. Overall, however, both feature a preponderance of anti-independence statements, a majority of anti-independence evidence and a heavy personalisation of the debate around the character of Alex Salmond with the latter often portrayed as selfish and undemocratic. 

     

    Personally, I have BBC News bookmarked, the business, sport news pages - normally it's what I go on to read when I first open up the PC in the morning, these last couple of weeks have found myself not doing that, reason being I do not trust anything I am reading anymore, if not trust then I can't expect to see fairness or balance in reporting. This is saddening.

     

    My good lady who is not political by any stretch of the imagination, watched the events around Nick Robinson mis-reporting on 6 o clock news, and wishes to cancel the TV License prior to next month, she is disgusted, and her trust in the BBC has evaporated. Her decision not mine.

     

    It is clear social media has driven this tightening of the polls, I wonder what the polls would look like if the usual fair minded balanced media reporting had gone ahead.

     

    As a PS - the dismissal of any No story as fear mongering by Yes, is something that I genuinely think is not true, it is easy to argue that all on the Yes side do this, as the dismissal of fear is now a tactic as much as the fear itself ! 

     

    Whenever a story breaks, or new information arrives e.g this week Economy, Banks, Jobs, Food Prices, Telecoms etc I see people looking for their own truth then re-evaluating their decision. End result still being a 22 point lead has dissolved and we are now at deadlock. One wonders how much the bias has contributed to this, as any key message may be dismissed on the basis of a loss of trust for the messenger.

     

    Edit - this petition probably displays the depth of feeling better than I could articulate, now c69K signatures

     

    https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    Edited by lorenzo
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    Don't take it personally J10, I think November is just very passionate about what he believes, and that's what comes over in what he writes and his style. There is undoubtedly bias in the media up here, and I don't think the BBC has been quite so impartial as it might have been. What an individual believes about the essential question - i.e. is independence as it is on offer now, right for Scotland?  will shape that person's view on whether BBC reporting is neutral / factual or biassed.

     

    If yes loses on Thursday (and I hope they do, for reasons I've already articulated) it will be because they've failed to get their message across effectively to all sections of the Scottish electorate, in terms that people can believe and embrace. Again, as I posted yesterday, their biggest failure will have been in persuading the older half of the population that what they're proposing is 'best'. Mainstream  media hasn't helped them, and the more successful approach via new media - the 'Wings' site and others - just won't reach the old, ever.

     

    So for next time, 'Yes' will need to try to change tactics, and to persuade at least a significant section of the MSM to be explicit in support. In my view, if the message is  compelling enough, that effort will succeed. But  there are too many important flaws in the current offering from 'Yes' for that to ever have been the case, since 2011. I think, if 'no' wins, 'Yes' will learn those lessons quickly, and for next time round, they'll do much better.

    To some degree both sides have failed in targeting certain groups. Younger people respond to the hope and change message, that's been missing from BT. Yes IMO have allowed a certain narrative to develop amongst older voters the " if it sounds too good to be true". They have failed to negate certain peoples fears about risk.

     

    I don't think its acceptable for Salmond in particular to just cry scaremongering and bluff at every possible risk, this simply comes across to certain people as not realistic.

     

    Equally I think theres been too much negativity in terms of risk from BT. Theres been a reluctance on their part to accept that things probably would turn out okay in the end, if their campaign is Better Together this doesn't mean catastrophe if we're apart.

     

    Both sides have really just played to their likely supporters, neither have got the balance right in terms of message.

     

    The result therefore hinges on which message resonates with the DK's or softer Yes's and No's, there seems to be an assumption that Yes's are all solid. This maybe more the case in younger voters but people shouldn't underestimate "fear of change" as a strong pull for certain individuals especially in the older age group.

     

    I think an interesting question this poses is if theres a No, will to be blunt older people dying off bring those more pro Yes's into the majority, so as they get older they're not quite as risk averse as those currently or do we all just become more risk averse and to a degree more cynical as we get older!

    Edited by nick sussex
    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Guest
    This topic is now closed to further replies.
    ×
    ×
    • Create New...