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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Peterborough
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and frost in the winter. Hot and sunny, thunderstorms in the summer.
  • Location: Peterborough

    This is where I think over egging the pudding does the pro independence camp a complete disservice. Currency is a legitimate debating point and to morph multinational companies into Tory buisinessmen is tactically similar to the unions's approach.

    Indeed, the likes of RBS and others are only looking out for one thing. Themselves, hence why they have contingency plans. Of course they have a partisan view that the union would be more profitable to them. But whatever the result large multinationals will adapt to get the best return for their shareholder investment.

    My one worry about the yes campaign is it's obsession on Westminster and how everything bad must end up at the door to No 10 Downing street. In respect to how companies behave and how the EU will deal with Scotland's application to the EU. Then there are other factors in play beyond those voiced by the leaders of BT and pro-indy sides at the moment. I haven't mentioned NATO because to be frank there isn't any reason for Scotland to not be immediately invited to join, unless of course Scotland doesn't want to.

    Edited by Captain shortwave
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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    One of the people from facebook says: Independence is The Cure not the Disease. This amazing country of ours will be on its Knees begging the World to save us if we don't take decisive action and Stand Alone. Westminster can barely support England Wales and Northern Ireland.We are doing rest of UK an incredible favour by breaking away. Our Independence Could be and End to UK Austerity. I agree with her.

    Why do you agree with her? What are the figures and facts that support what "one of the people on facebook says" in some rather unoriginal soundbite? It's nonsense.

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    I didn't claim there would be an increase in jobs, I wanted to know what the overall net loss would be :)

    Well IMHO then as a businessman in senior Finance positions for over 35 years I'd say expect to see a minimum of 10,000 job losses in Scotland.

    People can shoot me down as scaremongering if they wish but its an educated guess and a lot of what is being said by BOTH AS and BT are no more than guesses either.

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    Posted
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.
  • Weather Preferences: very cold frosty days, blizzards, very hot weather, floods, storms
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.

    Why do you agree with her? What are the figures and facts that support what "one of the people on facebook says" in some rather unoriginal soundbite? It's nonsense.

    I actually agree with quite a few people support independence actually.

     

     

    Edited by pip22
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Higher prices

    Fewer jobs

    Recession

    Isolation

    A very high price to pay for independence from your own country.

    Most of the 'undecideds' will vote NO. There will also be a number of people who say they will vote YES, but away from bombastic bullying of the YES campaign will change to NO.

    Think about it. Netweather is a pretty civilised place and there are hardly any Scottish based people who dare to voice a NO opinion. Why is that, when according to the polls at least 50% of them will vote NO. It may be because they know that they will be viciously verbally attacked.

     

    Higher prices? You mean in line with the already high prices we pay for our shopping? The big supermarkets make £bns of profit every year. Where does that come from? They screw their suppliers, overcharge their customers and underpay their staff. Where else do you think profits come from? It's a sign of an imperfect market when companies operating in that market make huge profits.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Well IMHO then as a businessman in senior Finance positions for over 35 years I'd say expect to see a minimum of 10,000 job losses in Scotland.

    People can shoot me down as scaremongering if they wish but its an educated guess and a lot of what is being said by BOTH AS and BT are no more than guesses either.

     

    Fair enough kar :)

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    I actually agree with quite a few people support independence actually.

    You don't seem to have understood my question.

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    Posted
  • Location: @scotlandwx
  • Weather Preferences: Crystal Clear High Pressure & Blue Skies
  • Location: @scotlandwx

    Another good read from Alex Massie, if we are short of the dimension of passionate No Thanks arguments, then read here to know they do exists.

     

    Not my viewpoint, but nonetheless at the level of debate one had hoped the BT campaign had delivered without the all the fear mongering, bias etc.

     

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/why-i-am-voting-no/

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Higher prices? You mean in line with the already high prices we pay for our shopping? The big supermarkets make £bns of profit every year. Where does that come from? They screw their suppliers, overcharge their customers and underpay their staff. Where else do you think profits come from? It's a sign of an imperfect market when companies operating in that market make huge profits.

    Food prices are actually very low.

     

    None of what you have said in any case would mean that prices WOULDN'T rise in an independent Scotland.

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    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    As I said a few days ago theres a lack of middle ground shown by both campaigns. Personally I find  Yes too optimistic and No too negative.

     

    I don't think Yes has been straightforward enough with its voters and this applies to No. There seems to be a fear shown by both sides to accept any form of middleground as they perceive this as a weakness, however the softer portion that support Yes and No will fall into that centre.

     

    Both campaigns have spent far too much time talking to themselves, people inherently look for information that validates their point of view so often switch off to anything that doesn't follow that.

     

    I think its probably easier for someone outside of Scotland to see the validity in both arguments. People in here shouldn't confuse criticism of either side as rubbishing everything that Yes or No stand for.

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    Posted
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.
  • Weather Preferences: very cold frosty days, blizzards, very hot weather, floods, storms
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.

    Why I agree with her? Because it just shows independence is a good thing. Malta gained its Independence from the British/Union too last century ago and she is doing very well today as an Independent country. Why? One word: Tourism. Scotland got its own tourism/sport industry like Skiing, Mountain climbing, own football league, sightseeing, etc.  More importantly Scotland will be a prosperous nation if they discover more oil. I'm sure an Independent Scotland will revive the coal mining industry too.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Fair enough kar :)

    Cheers CMD :-)

    On another point about austerity posted earlier here's one to think about...

    Austerity would be cost of foreign reserve credibility...

    An independent Scotland would need to raise £20 billion of foreign reserves to win the same credibility in markets as Denmark, the country nationalists are drawing parallels with, according to figures from the Bank of England.

    Scotland is expected to have no more than £15 billion of reserves at independence, meaning it would face years of austerity to raise the extra £20 billion.

    The scale of the requirement emerged from the Treasury select committee on a tough day for the pro-independence campaign that saw Scotland’s financial sector threaten to decamp to the UK en masse and the pound recover as fears of a break-up receded.

    The scale of foreign currency reserves Edinburgh would need to protect the nation from the threat of destabilising money flows could be extrapolated from data provided to MPs by the governor of the Bank of England.

    Alex Salmond has compared an independent Scotland to Denmark and Hong Kong. Denmark has reserves equivalent to 26 per cent of GDP and Hong Kong has reserves equal to 119 per cent of GDP, the Bank said. The country would need £34 billion to match Denmark and £155 billion to match Hong Kong.

    Bear in mind Brent Crude is at a 2 year low.

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    I believe that we need the safety that a UK-wide defence policy brings us.

    That will be safety from the biggest present threat on these islands which is terrorism that would seek to target the UK because of and is driven on by they the actions of that very UK military launching illegal invasions against international law without UN authority? This supposed 'Strength through unity', 'punching above our weight', keeping up the appearance of a world power - it has not made the UK safer or more secure, it has made it more vulnerable.

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Why I agree with her? Because it just shows independence is a good thing. Malta gained its Independence from the British/Union too last century ago and she is doing very well today as an Independent country. Why? One word: Tourism. Scotland got its own tourism/sport industry like Skiing, Mountain climbing, own football league, sightseeing, etc.  More importantly Scotland will be a prosperous nation if they discover more oil. I'm sure an Independent Scotland will revive the coal mining industry too.

    Again, not the question: why is independence the cure for the whole UK?

     

    What you've said here is, in any case, guesswork, wishful thinking, and use of false analogies. The idea that tourism and the hope that more oil might be discovered is a sound enough basis for an independent country is jaw-dropping. If these are the arguments that people are going to vote YES on, then God help you!

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    November, you're too black and white on this. What offends me about the way that many of the yes supporters portray those who disagree with them - the no voters - is the oft-stated view that they've been taken in by the MSM and are (by implication) incapable of independent analysis of the situation. Do you not accept that there are very many legitimate reasons for favouring the status quo? It appears that at least 40% of the Scottish electorate agree with me in my firm intention to vote no (although we'll not know that for sure until Friday coming).

     

    I think that there are very many things that Scotland can't do better with independence, but my views are rooted in wider opinions that you probably won't share. And these are opinions - mine and yours - that aren't facts. So, for instance, I believe that we need the safety that a UK-wide defence policy brings us. I believe that the Scotland's interests are best served abroad by being part of a larger and more influential administration. I believe that Scotland has prospered hugely over the past few centuries through being part of a bigger whole, and that something that isn't broken doesn't need fixed. In all of these areas, I'm equally sure that you disagree with me. Scotland and the Scots have not been oppressed in any meaningful way by Westminster, at least not in modern times. There have been bad things done in Scotland by Westminster - I remember very clearly the Thatcher years - but there were many equally bad things done in the rest of the UK. Scots have always been free to change things within an open democracy, and this year's referendum is the proof of that. Scots have been free to go south to change things from within the UK parliament, and there are very many examples of Scots doing just that from positions of ultimate power in the cabinet. 

     

    I'm not wrong just because you disagree with me, even if you think I'm misguided. I haven't been 'taken in' by the media, I'm not scared away from independence by the careless and sloppy journalism we're seeing. My view has been formed over all of the years I've lived south and north of the border. And upwards of 40% of Scots agree with me, not with you. By dismissing us all as naive dupes of the media, or else 'fearties' who don't know a good thing when we see it, you're being hugely insulting. How many no supporters do you know, and have you ever taken the time to try to understand why they believe as they do? I move in a circle of 90% no supporters - I know almost no 'yes' supporters either at work or socially. These are all honest people who - like you - want only the best from themselves and their country and their family. 'Morally bankrupt?' I don't think so.

    Great and considered post.

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    Posted
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.
  • Weather Preferences: very cold frosty days, blizzards, very hot weather, floods, storms
  • Location: Clayton-Le-Woods, Chorley 59m asl.

    Again, not the question: why is independence the cure for the whole UK?

     

    What you've said here is, in any case, guesswork, wishful thinking, and use of false analogies. The idea that tourism and the hope that more oil might be discovered is a sound enough basis for an independent country is jaw-dropping. If these are the arguments that people are going to vote YES on, then God help you!

    Lets see who will win the argument on Thursday/Friday.  Only time will tell. I will admit defeat if yes vote didn't win and I will accept and respect your Unionist views by the time comes. Its all about respect to each other, just like being in a truce or a ceasefire.

     

     

    Edited by pip22
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    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    Further to Decomms post.

     

    Whats the difference between these two statements.

     

    I'm voting No because I think it's better for my family and Scotlands future.

     

    I'm voting Yes because I think it's better for my family and Scotlands future.

     

    Theres isn't any, if people genuinely believe either what gives the right to anyone to judge them.  This is the whole point of a democracy, people are free to choose what they want to do.

     

    Decomms made her views known in an honest post, that's how she feels and she has every right to feel that way, just as November 13 has every right to feel the way he does.

     

    The sooner people started showing a bit more empathy and understanding the better.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

    November, you're too black and white on this. What offends me about the way that many of the yes supporters portray those who disagree with them - the no voters - is the oft-stated view that they've been taken in by the MSM and are (by implication) incapable of independent analysis of the situation. Do you not accept that there are very many legitimate reasons for favouring the status quo? It appears that at least 40% of the Scottish electorate agree with me in my firm intention to vote no (although we'll not know that for sure until Friday coming).

     

    I think that there are very many things that Scotland can't do better with independence, but my views are rooted in wider opinions that you probably won't share. And these are opinions - mine and yours - that aren't facts. So, for instance, I believe that we need the safety that a UK-wide defence policy brings us. I believe that the Scotland's interests are best served abroad by being part of a larger and more influential administration. I believe that Scotland has prospered hugely over the past few centuries through being part of a bigger whole, and that something that isn't broken doesn't need fixed. In all of these areas, I'm equally sure that you disagree with me. Scotland and the Scots have not been oppressed in any meaningful way by Westminster, at least not in modern times. There have been bad things done in Scotland by Westminster - I remember very clearly the Thatcher years - but there were many equally bad things done in the rest of the UK. Scots have always been free to change things within an open democracy, and this year's referendum is the proof of that. Scots have been free to go south to change things from within the UK parliament, and there are very many examples of Scots doing just that from positions of ultimate power in the cabinet. 

     

    I'm not wrong just because you disagree with me, even if you think I'm misguided. I haven't been 'taken in' by the media, I'm not scared away from independence by the careless and sloppy journalism we're seeing. My view has been formed over all of the years I've lived south and north of the border. And upwards of 40% of Scots agree with me, not with you. By dismissing us all as naive dupes of the media, or else 'fearties' who don't know a good thing when we see it, you're being hugely insulting. How many no supporters do you know, and have you ever taken the time to try to understand why they believe as they do? I move in a circle of 90% no supporters - I know almost no 'yes' supporters either at work or socially. These are all honest people who - like you - want only the best from themselves and their country and their family. 'Morally bankrupt?' I don't think so.

    one of the most 'considered' posts in this whole thread, a pleasure to read and some very good points based on sound logic........quite a few 'yes' and 'no' supporters in this thread could take a lot on board from this post, and not just the actual content, but the manner in which said content is put across (i.e in a non-confrontational manner)    :good:

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Well IMHO then as a businessman in senior Finance positions for over 35 years I'd say expect to see a minimum of 10,000 job losses in Scotland.

    People can shoot me down as scaremongering if they wish but its an educated guess and a lot of what is being said by BOTH AS and BT are no more than guesses either.

     

    Having said that, they might choose to keep the call centres in Scotland. Many businesses have "offshore" call centres (but usually for very low wage/tax reasons).

     

    The only certainty in all of this is, in true QI Fashion, "NOBODY KNOWS!"  (Klaxon)

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    Posted
  • Location: @scotlandwx
  • Weather Preferences: Crystal Clear High Pressure & Blue Skies
  • Location: @scotlandwx

    Referendum output discussion..

     

    Model runs are due out shortly the 12z Survation poll ... released at 3pm.

     

    Opinium and Panelbase 18z, 21:30, due out later also...

    Edited by lorenzo
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    There is a fundamental difference. For the first time in it's history at 7am next Thursday Scotland will be both a sovereign and democratic nation. If we vote YES then that power remains, Scotland's future will be in Scotland's hands.

     

    ...as well as in Brussels hands...

     

    Any takers for the question reference squaring the circle regarding the Euro and EU membership I posted earlier.... ???

     

     

    (I repeat -  I'm not UKIP or anti EU . .I'm just anti-Eurozone & Currency Union but seriously interested in the fundamental economic and democratic issues this poses.) :)

     

    Nov13. Here's one to debate then. SNP are pro EU but as things stand entry into the EU, which is highly likely but not certain, currently stipulates adoption on the Euro.

    Therefore at some stage Scotland would be straight jacketed economically not by Westminster but Brussels.

    BTW I'm not ukip.

    "We can choose not to adopt the the Euro" isn't an acceptable answer IMHO because I believe as EU law stands you can't..unlike saying we can keep the pound which by Sterlingization you can.

    Is that not swapping the devil you know (WM) for one you dont?

    This a genuine point to which if I had the vote would concern me.

     

    Thanks.

     

    EDIT.. I'm all in favour of the democratic right for self determination but "winging it" on some of the most vital future fundamentals isn't my(personal) idea of a way forward.... just my opinion so don't shoot the messenger please. Feel free to debate...   :gathering:

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: @scotlandwx
  • Weather Preferences: Crystal Clear High Pressure & Blue Skies
  • Location: @scotlandwx

    It's a great point Kar - with entry to Europe comes the adoption of the Euro.

     

    Wouldn't it be surreal to see potentially iScot into Europe -  at the very same time rUK are having a referendum to leave Europe...

     

    This is one of the uncertainties that is part of a future neither side can predict.

     

    Is that not swapping the devil you know (WM) for one you dont?

     

    For many Yes voters having your own government to deal with either devil is the more important issue.

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