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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Today, a new nation was born in the world; something that we all should rejoice in. The right to self determination is democracy. It is something we should all be proud of and esteem too. Best of luck to South Sudan in the years ahead.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk...africa-14092375

    At home, on a related matter. If you agree with the above, then you will enjoy these.

    Stuff Scots have got used to from those in the UK (Scots included) we should not be proud of...

    http://www.youtube.c...n4WFbnsB5o&NR=1

    What happened in May…

    What’s happening now…

    http://www.youtube.c...h?v=gkQdgKo4fVs

    And what to expect on tellyboxes north of the border soon:

    Here’s to all the nations of the British Isles, may we all prosper free to govern ourselves without nepotism and corruption.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    According to the BBC/Comres, 45% of those south of the Border believe that they should be able to vote on the issue of Scottish independence, blocking it if they wish.

    I must admit I'm a bit taken aback as such a move (although it will not happen) would destroy the international reputation of the UK as a democracy and contravene the The United Nations International Covenant on Civil And Political Rights, to which the UK is a signatory. Surely that figure can't be right? None of my friends/colleagues from south of the border think like this, for them it's entirely up to Scots. Who on earth are these 45%? Looking at this, I would have thought this was done to muddy the waters, but the net effect is to portray a proud democratic nation in a poor light. I just can't believe that figure is correct.

    The saving grace is that 47% don't believe that they should have a say. These are the people England should be proud of; those who truly believe in democracy.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-13995097

    For reference:

    http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cpr.html

    PART 1

    Article 1

    1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

    2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.

    3. The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.

    In reality, by opposing independence / fighting against it, the westminster government has already breached P1.A1.3, which requires them to promote self determination. If Dave C et al were democratic, they should help facilitate the referendum and play no part in any campaign against it. The SNP + greens are in contrast, following the UN covenant, by offering the referendum and promoting it.

    Aha. I was looking at 1 of your posts in the regional weather thread earlier and that made me think - I wonder if he's over on that other thread too...

    Very interesting stuff here. I'm a bit of a village idiot - kind of retired hard-left anti-nationalist - and I would do everything to avoid a split in the UK. A fairly major point for you: why does it seem to obvious that Engish people should have no say in the breaking of the Union?

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Aha. I was looking at 1 of your posts in the regional weather thread earlier and that made me think - I wonder if he's over on that other thread too...

    Very interesting stuff here. I'm a bit of a village idiot - kind of retired hard-left anti-nationalist - and I would do everything to avoid a split in the UK. A fairly major point for you: why does it seem to obvious that Engish people should have no say in the breaking of the Union?

    Self-determination has nothing to do with anyone who doesn't live in that country.

    It is irrelevant if you are a Scot, or English or Polish or Martian; if you don't live here it is nothing to do with you.

    If you actually live in Scotland and you are English or Pakistani or Chinese then you have an equal vote to any Scot or Gael or anyone else who lives within the borders of Scotland.

    We live here, and by we I mean everyone and anyone who lives within the borders of Scotland. It is f all to do with anyone who lives outwith our borders.

    Get over it!! :rofl: It is our country.

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    Self-determination has nothing to do with anyone who doesn't live in that country.

    It is irrelevant if you are a Scot, or English or Polish or Martian; if you don't live here it is nothing to do with you.

    If you actually live in Scotland and you are English or Pakistani or Chinese then you have an equal vote to any Scot or Gael or anyone else who lives within the borders of Scotland.

    We live here, and by we I mean everyone and anyone who lives within the borders of Scotland. It is f all to do with anyone who lives outwith our borders.

    Get over it!! :rofl: It is our country.

    Just saying it's self-determination doesn't alter the fact that it's a breaking of the union - and because it's breaking the union, with no equivalent vote for English, Welsh and Northern Irish, those country's people would be having their rights compromised.

    Sorry, clumsily worded!

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Just saying it's self-determination doesn't alter the fact that it's a breaking of the union - and because it's breaking the union, with no equivalent vote for English, Welsh and Northern Irish, those country's people would be having their rights compromised.

    Sorry, clumsily worded!

    The making of the union had no voting rights, don't think that the breaking of it should have any voting rights. There was no ratification to bring us into this union. Maybe we should hold a vote to see who wants to be in the union, rather than a vote on breaking it??

    And as I said previously, everyone who lives in Scotland would have a right to vote on this, it is nothing to do with anyone else. I couldn't care less what anyone outwith Scotland thinks. It is our country.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Aha. I was looking at 1 of your posts in the regional weather thread earlier and that made me think - I wonder if he's over on that other thread too...

    Very interesting stuff here. I'm a bit of a village idiot - kind of retired hard-left anti-nationalist - and I would do everything to avoid a split in the UK. A fairly major point for you: why does it seem to obvious that Engish people should have no say in the breaking of the Union?

    HC, yes, this is a very interesting area.

    Democracy is about self determination. If we are all in agreement that Scotland is one of the geopolitical (realm, kingdom….) areas that make up the UK – of which there is no doubt – then it is free to self-determine its own future; if the Scots feel Scottish and wish this, then they should not be hindered in that quest.

    England, Wales, NI all share this same right. The city of London could become independent too if those living there wished it…

    In the case of the latter – it is just very unlikely to happen due to the socio-economic circumstances. However, this does not detract from the right of a people to form a community and seek self governance. As long as that community plays by global rules (UN), they should be able to do so.

    What is fundamental to self determination is that one realm cannot decide the fate of another; this needs no explanation. Which answers your question.

    If the Scots wish independence, it is their right. If there is majority support, then this is what should happen. The same applies for any people/realm within the UK and elsewhere. The arguments for and against a constitutional referendum are superfluous; it is the ability of a people to hold one which makes democracy.

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    The making of the union had no voting rights, don't think that the breaking of it should have any voting rights. There was no ratification to bring us into this union. Maybe we should hold a vote to see who wants to be in the union, rather than a vote on breaking it??

    And as I said previously, everyone who lives in Scotland would have a right to vote on this, it is nothing to do with anyone else. I couldn't care less what anyone outwith Scotland thinks. It is our country.

    Well no, we need a contemporary solution, if there's a problem to solve. I'm all for voting, but for what? Effectively, the end of the union, so all members of the union should have a vote. You might not care less what anyone outwith Scotland thinks, but there are more than 10 non-Scots in the union for every Scot who might disagree.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Well no, we need a contemporary solution, if there's a problem to solve. I'm all for voting, but for what? Effectively, the end of the union, so all members of the union should have a vote. You might not care less what anyone outwith Scotland thinks, but there are more than 10 non-Scots in the union for every Scot who might disagree.

    You don't understand this HC, it is nothing to do with anyone outside Scotland. It is our choice, if you don't like it then tough. We didn't vote for a union so why should we vote to get out of something we never voted for in the first place...d'uh.

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    HC, yes, this is a very interesting area.

    Democracy is about self determination. If we are all in agreement that Scotland is one of the geopolitical (realm, kingdom….) areas that make up the UK – of which there is no doubt – then it is free to self-determine its own future; if the Scots feel Scottish and wish this, then they should not be hindered in that quest.

    England, Wales, NI all share this same right. The city of London could become independent too if those living there wished it…

    In the case of the latter – it is just very unlikely to happen due to the socio-economic circumstances. However, this does not detract from the right of a people to form a community and seek self governance. As long as that community plays by global rules (UN), they should be able to do so.

    What is fundamental to self determination is that one realm cannot decide the fate of another; this needs no explanation. Which answers your question.

    If the Scots wish independence, it is their right. If there is majority support, then this is what should happen. The same applies for any people/realm within the UK and elsewhere. The arguments for and against a constitutional referendum are superfluous; it is the ability of a people to hold one which makes democracy.

    Just to look at the part of your post that I've italicised: my point is that it's not just the fate of Scotland that's bound up in the union, it's the whole of the union, so independence for Scotland (if we take that as an assumed goal) is also independence (from Scotland) for England & Scotland & N. Ireland.

    (Could do with Ms HC or either young Masters HC here as I'm sure they'd put me right. Which is odd because I'm more Scottish than any of them...) Edit: although I'd rather just be called Celtic than anything else because it has no strong associations with modern states.

    You don't understand this HC, it is nothing to do with anyone outside Scotland. It is our choice, if you don't like it then tough. We didn't vote for a union so why should we vote to get out of something we never voted for in the first place...d'uh.

    Try telling that to anyone in England or Wales or N. Ireland. I think there would be slightly more apathy there than here but there'd be many millions with a view.

    Edited by Hairy Celt
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Mrs SS can leave our union if she so wishes. I can do the same. I can’t veto her, neither can she veto me. A happy union with equal rights. If our views diverge too much, then we might seek independence.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    Mrs SS can leave our union if she so wishes. I can do the same. I can’t veto her, neither can she veto me. A happy union with equal rights. If our views diverge too much, then we might seek independence.

    Ok, I think you've cracked it :D

    Told you I'm the village idiot.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Told you I'm the village idiot.

    You're doing a poor job at that. I've met far better idiots http://nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    Time will tell what happens, but change is afoot and that is quite natural.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    My view is that the Union of the United Kingdom will fall because ofsomething altogether more widespread...

    ...For me that is being English, for you it is being Scottish. That is noreason for not being friends and colleagues despite marginal sectarianismappearing in both countries.

    To outsiders it is known as self-determination. Something, in the main, theyalready have.

    A very interesting post, well written and thought provoking. I agree with much of what you say and concur that sectarianism is abhorrent; I dislike any 'anti-English' attitude as much as any 'anti-Scots' attitude. Likewise political debate should be a gentleman's game without the insults and petty squabbles that have become so common in politics in recent years. Watch old Westminster debates from past decades and compare with today; you can see degeneration from polite but firm sparring to increasing child-like insults and wind ups. Very sad really.

    With regard to the future of the Union, there was an interesting debate on newsnight recently (might still be on iplayer) on 'identity' and its relationship to nationalism. In summary, the conclusion was that English people embraced the concept of 'Britishness' more than the Scots; the latter generally saw themselves as Scots first and British by default; a natural reaction when you are outnumbered - you try to maintain your original identity. The empire/commonwealth was not bad for Scotland, providing jobs and wealth through manufacture and trade. However, Scots nationalists were ever present, they just believed in more autonomy within the commonwealth. The end of the empire was the first real test for the union and it held on, primarily due to the shared bond between the working classes across the UK; a miner from Wales wanted the same as one from Scotland or Yorkshire. The failure of Labour to deliver home rule to the Scots when the majority voted for it in 1979 was a massive blow to the Union - the Scots felt very utterly betrayed. Mrs Thatcher then successfully destroyed the Scots conservative vote while the decline in shipbuilding, mining etc in the UK started to remove the bonds that previously tied the UK working class together, testing the Union further. Labour knew that if they really wanted full Scots support in 1997, then they needed to give them what they did not in 1979; some form of home rule. This worked - for a while - but the combination of Labour slipping ever towards the middle (New Labour) combined with Scots liking ruling themselves began to erode Unionist party support. If you look back over election results for Scotland, the nationalist rise did not come out of nowhere; bar a wee dip under John Swinny, it has steadily grown since the very beginning. This is a natural progression and one that is probably impossible to stop. It is highly likely that Scotlandwill be independent at some point in the next 10 years - a 'No' vote in the first referendum does not prevent a second one.

    This presents a problem of sorts for England however in that they're ‘right’to be proud of being 'English' has been suppressed. The far right have hijacked this in many respects, meaning many still hold Britishness high as a replacement. This is a pity, as England should be as proud of itself as any other home nation. English nationalism is on the rise and this is a good thing as it needs to be claimed back from the far right. As it grows, there is less and less resistance to the idea of Scots wishing to govern themselves.

    The demise of the Union may seem sad to some,but it is not a bad thing. A Union can't be maintained for its own sake; this only causes discontent.

    Regarding family, the church etc. Many Scots are conservative, they just are not Conservatives/Tories. The church still holds a strong place in Scottish life (ferries on a Sunday in the western isles were met with a lot of opposition). What I feel remains strong in Scotland is the sense of society.Scots are centre left and remain so; they believe in hard work/business etc, but are willing to pay higher taxes if it means an NHS and 'free' education. They will just not go to the right, but not far to the left either. So, faced with another conservative government south of the border and a Labour moving to the middle, they are left with no option but to seek increasing autonomy.

    What is a major factor in this are the younger generation of Scots. For them, the British Empire is something in history books. The concept of Britishness is also somewhat alien therefore too. They have access to so much information online and that is what they are basing their political views upon. Granddad and dad might have read the Daily Record and voted labour as a rule, but the son/daughter votes SNP. This is why independence is likely inevitable; those who knew the Union as it once was are literally dying out. The young look around the world, see comparable sized countries just like their own, and think 'Hey, we can do this just fine'.

    I think it's sad to fight the inevitable. As noted, what is happening is not a 'demise' it is a re-birth. It is natural social progress. There have been 47 referendums since 1905 which created 45 new nations (only Quebec x 2 has not); this is perfectly normal and in no way harmful. I hope those in all the home nations can find what the Scots are finding in themselves; a hope for progress and more control over how they are governed. I firmly believe the way to strengthen the British Isles is to allow the home nations to rule themselves. As many have said in defence of the Union; United we stand, divided we fall. However, we are divided/falling and the only way to fix this is uniting on common causes with one country one vote.

    Wow, went on a bit there!

    Still, I think many in Westminster are putting their heads in sand on this issue. Labour up here seem to believe they won the recent election and that it’s all a bad SNP dream they’ll wake up from. It’s not, and the harder Unionists fight it, the more drawn out and messy it will become, which is bad for all.

    Slàinte mhòr!

    SS

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: ANYWHERE BUT HERE
  • Weather Preferences: ALL WEATHER, NOT THE PETTY POLITICS OF MODS IN THIS SITE
  • Location: ANYWHERE BUT HERE

    Can I as an Englishman join the Scotish National Party and work my way to the top of the political ladder?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Can I as an Englishman join the Scotish National Party and work my way to the top of the political ladder?

    I guess so. I doubt you'd get many votes standing in a constituency south of the border mind. Well, maybe in the North of England if you stood for joining up with Scotland and forming a centre-left social democracy.http://forum.netweather.tv/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    Only one thing though. As part of the initiation process, you need to run through a field of thistles wearing only a kilt before swimming a highland meltwater lochan in January. If you can survive that, there's haggis and whiskey to warm you up afterwards. :D

    Which comes an earlier point. If you have centre left or left leanings in the rest of the UK, who do you vote for now we have the Condems (right of centre) and Labour have shifted to the centre?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Intrigued (as I’ve been asked before) - after a big of digging, you’d join Iain McKee, Mike Russell, Angus Robertson and Christine Graham whom I understand all were born and lived at least part of their lives south of the border. Iain McKee has spoken proudly of his English origins (South Shields) in the past. There are others apparently, but not sure who.

    To accommodate the growing number of peoples represented by the Scottish Parliament / and MSPs with dual Scots-XYZ origins (e.g. Scots-Pakistani, -italian) the SNP did their recent swearing-in using 6 languages as appropriate for the specific MSP; English, Gaelic, Scots, Doric, Urdu and Italian (they did it in their native tongue and in English). As said in opening speeches by the SNP; all are welcome to become a ‘Scot’ (the people who live in Scotland – you don’t have to be born here to claim the title).

    http://news.stv.tv/election-2011/248497-msps-to-take-oaths-in-six-languages/

    My best man/mate is English, considers himself a 'Scot' now that he lives up here and votes SNP.

    So, move up and join up if you like! Although the kilted initiation ceremony stands.http://forum.netweather.tv/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    Can I as an Englishman join the Scotish National Party and work my way to the top of the political ladder?

    Yes, many of the most prominent SNP members are English.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Mrs SS is French-Scots and votes SNP; a colleague at work the same. Another workmate is Chinese-Scots and votes SNP. Boss is Iranian-Scots and votes SNP too.

    Aye, the SNP are a party of a land, a nation, and all the people who live in it, whether they’re originally from the Highlands or the Himalayas.

    Many moderate conservatives, Liberal and Labour voters have started voting SNP for that very reason;it is party of their homeland, working hard for that land with a shared ideal of socially democratic, left of centre, proportionally representative government.:good:

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Rochester, Kent
  • Location: Rochester, Kent

    Many moderate conservatives, Liberal and Labour voters have started voting SNP for that very reason;it is party of their homeland, working hard for that land with a shared ideal of socially democratic, left of centre, proportionally representative government.:good:

    I think the future lies with the moderates, to be honest, and if the SNP have cornered that vote then they're onto a winner.

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    Posted
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)
  • Weather Preferences: cold and snowy in winter, a good mix of weather the rest of the time
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)

    I think the future lies with the moderates, to be honest, and if the SNP have cornered that vote then they're onto a winner.

    It is a very broad church ideologically, with some fairly conservative minded MSPs and some unashamed socialists who would count themselves as to the left of Labour. Our policy is perhaps slightly ideologically ambiguous, though generally it is centre left and always in for Scotland and independence. In general we're a pretty liberal bunch, with a decent record of pacifism when the situation required but also supporting the military in Scotland when it has been cut disproportionately compared to the rest of the UK (Scotland now has a smaller conventional defence force than Ireland). I think we face two major problems at the moment that we have to overcome if we are to win the next election but, more crucially, the referendum: a) balancing our promises on the council tax freeze and other specific spending commitments with a declining budget and ensuring that we keep education and other local authority controlled areas of the public sector well funded and http://nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif representing people properly in all areas of policy and not simply trying to convince them on the issue of independence alone. We did very well with the latter in the last session but with a majority and 5 years guaranteed in power I hope our MSPs don't forget that governing well with the powers we do have is integral to success in a referendum.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Oh dear, the Unionist parties just don't get it:

    http://newsnetscotla...power-grab.html

    If they want Scots to vote to stay in the Union, they should leave them alone to do so. Any interference will be seen as exactly that and encourage a YES to independence.

    Let the Scots have their own referendum Westminster and don't stick your nose in. By all means bring in some international observers, but stay out of it; that is the morally and democratically correct thing to do.

    EDIT, when you look at these two:

    http://www.sehd.scot...s0/his0-g03.gif

    http://www.politicsh...ndence_poll.JPG

    The union has around 10 years left. Supporters of the Union in Scotland are literally dying out; the young increasingly support an independent Scotland.

    I expect a yes to full fiscal autonomy this time round followed by full independence within 5 years of that.

    Just the way things are going. Chill out Davey - it's not the end of the world.

    EDIT2:

    Comres Poll puts support for the SNP on 42% ahead of Labour on 35% in Scotland for Westminster elections.

    http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/in-brief/2754-snp-welcome-com-res-poll-scottish-sample.html#comment-60511

    A significant trend if it continues.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)
  • Weather Preferences: cold and snowy in winter, a good mix of weather the rest of the time
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)

    RAF Leuchars closed yesterday. A sad day for the local area here and for many of my friends who have parents in the RAF. It is turning into an army base by 2017 as troops are rebased from Germany and Lossie was spared closing so perhaps not as disasterous a day as it might have been, but still it is frankly bizarre to see the tories cutting conventional defences by so much. They certainly should not be allowed to indulge in the hypocrisy of attacking either the SNP's defence policy or even Labour for cutting defence spending (the whole Brown handwritten letter nonsense from The Sun comes to mind). But anyway, that's a reserved issue!http://nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    I agree with SS RE what the unionists should do if they want a no vote. The best thing that David Cameron could do for the Yes campaign is to come up here and try to lead the no campaign. There are still a few credible unionists I suppose, who could perhaps try to appeal to a sense of cultural Britishness based on mundanities rather than political issues, but that is perhaps the only vaguely positive campaign message they could come up with http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Kenny-Farquharson-Britishness-is-about.6798883.jp The main flaw with this of course is that we can culturally be whatevever we like - Indian, Pakistani, Polish, Irish, Norwegian, Brazillian or Martian - and still live in whatever country we like. Few nations know this better than Scotland - there are millions of Scots living across the world who feel Scottish, even if they are third or fourth generation American, Australian or whatever. Equally, Western Scotland has very strong cultural links with Eire, and there are obviously very strong historic ties with France. As SS has done a fine job of explaining, cultural ties between Scotland and the remaining UK could well be enhanced with the potential for the growth of a more distinctive England free from the cultural homogenity and resentment of the union. Besides, we're probably going to end up under the same monarch even with independence for a few years at least, and I don't really see that as a pressing issue, more a symbollic one. No one would question that Australia and Canada are countries which are in practice fully self governing.

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    Posted
  • Location: ANYWHERE BUT HERE
  • Weather Preferences: ALL WEATHER, NOT THE PETTY POLITICS OF MODS IN THIS SITE
  • Location: ANYWHERE BUT HERE

    I personally think that the Scotts are clever enough to realise that they are better off NOT to go down the road of independance.

    This is where the SNP party and Alex Salmon have miscalculated IMO. If Alex Salmon continues on his path to make Scotland independent he will definitely risk bringing about the destruction of his own country. Either he is blind or he is foolishly hiding his own misgivings. Its a dangerous game to play.

    Edited by Village
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I personally think that the Scotts are clever enough to realise that they are better off NOT to go down the road of independance.

    This is where the SNP party and Alex Salmon have miscalculated IMO. If Alex Salmon continues on his path to make Scotland independent he will definitely risk bringing about the destruction of his own country. Either he is blind or he is foolishly hiding his own misgivings. Its a dangerous game to play.

    I trust you have looked deeply into the matter and have formed your opinion based on this.

    I have three higher degrees and I'm a research fellow in petroleum engineering / consultant to senior people in the industry. Tomorrow, I will be given an award by my peers at an international conference for my exceptional contributions to the field in a short time as a younger researcher. The purpose of blowing my own trumpet is not merely for the sake of it, but to illustrate I likely fall into your category of 'clever' Scots.http://nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    My support for the SNP is based on their track record in government and policy. My support for independence comes not from any SNP argument, but rather from researching the matter and drawing my own conclusions. My skills in this are well regarded.

    I'm not sure you are aware, but it is the educated Scots that are voting SNP. The lawyers, doctors, scientists, oil and gas production engineers etc. You will notice that Aberdeenshire/NE; one of the most profitable regions of Scotland, filled with very clever people (the oil industry gets the best), and Europe's 'Oil capital' has always been one of the SNPs strongholds. Recently, Edinburgh; the Scottish financial centre and similarly a wealthy area full of educated professionals also finally went completely SNP.

    If you look at the poorer areas in Scotland, these are where the Labour vote holds on; a remnant of the time Labour were actually 'for the working man'. Even these areas are waking up to the fact that if they want better, they need to take responsibility for their own future.

    Thus, I am not sure your conclusions are entirely correct and I'm interested as to how you reached them; lots of educated people who live and work here have arrived at the opposite conclusion, particularly those in the energy and financial industries.

    Would you prefer Scotland to remain part of the UK? Your post suggests you do. Thus I conclude you consider Scotland an important part of the UK economically and you'd be entirely correct in thinking that. :good:

    EDIT. Just to avoid any confusion; it is the Scottish National Party (SNP) and their leader Alex Salmond I assume we are discussing with respect to this important constitutional issue.

    Edited by scottish skier
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  • Location: ANYWHERE BUT HERE
  • Weather Preferences: ALL WEATHER, NOT THE PETTY POLITICS OF MODS IN THIS SITE
  • Location: ANYWHERE BUT HERE

    Yes, I do think that Scotland should remain part of the UK. It is an important area and we all benefit together.

    I am sure that your particular field and associates would be in support of the SNP idea of independence, however, the majority across society will have a different view. Most will ask the question; why would Scotland benefit by leaving a UK economy and currency only to join a Euro economy and currency where the majority of members dont speak the same language and have a totally different culture.?

    But....I think the most dangerous aspect if the SNP continues on down its current road is that a sizeable proportion of Scots will not want a split and this could lead Scotland into a situation like Ireland. It is possible that a region or regions remain within the UK and the rest outside and will wish to fight for total independence.

    You think that Scots wont turn on Scots in such a situation? Think again, already we are seeing more recent sectarian violence in Scotland along the lines of old religious bias. It may be that this combination of change could provide a situation which nobody wanted.

    This is what I think is not being taken into account. Scotland is not a country of like minded individuals, there is no 'National' movement and therefore the SNP could open divissions in its attempt to unify.

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