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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    If we were to wait until Westminster had no 'conflicts' to worry about before deciding on our independence then I suspect we'd be waiting a very long time. Anyway, wasn't it only recently that Westminster had so little to do they had to take an unscheduled break? This should keep them busy for a while.

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    during possibly the most worrying period in terms of conflict and global dangers. Was hoping to widen the debate, that's all.

     

    Ok I see.

     

    I guess you are quite young?

     

    I grew up under the possible threat of all out global nuclear conflict. At the same time, I watched massive riots and protests (miners strikes, poll tax protests etc) across the UK on the TV. England was also regularly bombed by the IRA with large sections of the UK under effective martial law / army control (N. Ireland).

     

    I feel slightly safer at the moment than I did then. Scotland has only suffered one failed terrorist attack in my lifetime (Glasgow Airport) and that was a direct result of UK foreign policy.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Ok I see.

     

    I guess you are quite young?

     

    I grew up under the possible threat of all out global nuclear conflict. At the same time, I watched massive riots and protests (miners strikes, poll tax protests etc) across the UK on the TV. England was also regularly bombed by the IRA with large sections of the UK under effective martial law / army control (N. Ireland).

     

    I feel slightly safer at the moment than I did then. Scotland has only suffered one failed terrorist attack in my lifetime (Glasgow Airport) and that was a direct result of UK foreign policy.

    No I'm not that young. More patronising. 

     

    If you think the problems we are currently facing can be dismissed in a reference back to the 1980s, I think you are living under a sense of false security.

     

    More evasiveness, I'm afraid. 1st post: it's the UK government's fault that there's the possibility of independence now. 2nd post: the 1980s were a bit dodgy in the UK. Even if we were to say the 1980s were more worrying that the current threats (which I don't believe is a viable position), how does that help or contribute to a consideration of the possible detrimental effects of having the UK government occupied with the details of the divorce?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

     how does that help or contribute to a consideration of the possible detrimental effects of having the UK government occupied with the details of the divorce?

     

    I didn't realise we were married. I thought it more of a business relationship originally born of imperial ambitions. No empire so what exactly is the purpose now?

     

    Personally, I think a 'effects on rUK' would be better as a separate thread as this is a 'Scottish Politics' one; a place primarily for NW users from Scotland to discuss the politics of their country, although nothing to stop others joining in out of interest. I started it for exactly that purpose and to avoid clogging up the UK thread.

     

    A thread where people not in Scotland can discuss what effects they think an iScotland would have where they live would be appropriate, particularly if it's a Yes vote.

     

    People in Scotland are of course most interested in the effects of a Yes on Scotland. People in the rUK would I imagine, if interested, be more concerned about effects for them. Two quite different topics, although related, as they come from quite different perspectives.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    If we were to wait until Westminster had no 'conflicts' to worry about before deciding on our independence then I suspect we'd be waiting a very long time. Anyway, wasn't it only recently that Westminster had so little to do they had to take an unscheduled break? This should keep them busy for a while.

     

    Aye, and according to the No Thanks campaign the UK state is so strong and powerful and mighty....they can surely take a break from healing all the problems in the world to deal with the poxy little matter of sharing out some assets and splitting some debt?

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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level

    No I'm not that young. More patronising. 

     

    If you think the problems we are currently facing can be dismissed in a reference back to the 1980s, I think you are living under a sense of false security.

     

    More evasiveness, I'm afraid. 1st post: it's the UK government's fault that there's the possibility of independence now. 2nd post: the 1980s were a bit dodgy in the UK. Even if we were to say the 1980s were more worrying that the current threats (which I don't believe is a viable position), how does that help or contribute to a consideration of the possible detrimental effects of having the UK government occupied with the details of the divorce?

     

     

    for a start the 1980's were far more dangerous with the IRA with truck bombs and big stuff nothing like that happens these days just a few nutters with rucksacks so the government being tied up for a while is hardly life ending stuff when you think we have the police, MI5, MI6 and the army if need be so I don't see your point apart from trying to scare us out of voting YES which from your tactics I don't think you even understand in the slightest what this vote is about and the way you are going about it is like your reading straight out the no campaign handbook and failing drastically like them claiming you aren't getting answers to make it look as if we don't know what we are talking about when its you that knows very little.

    Edited by ajpoolshark
    no name calling thank you!
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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level

    post-18233-0-31360700-1409395596_thumb.j

     

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

    again, the thread is reduced to name calling and personal comments.....Despite plenty of requests from the site team to cease the personal comments and thread derailments, they continue to detract from what is otherwise a lively and informative thread......

     

    .....So for the final time, please keep it civil when posting......hit the 'Report' button for any posts one considers questionable and allow the site team to deal with them, rather than reply and risk further derailment of the thread...........

     

    The scenario we're desperately trying to avoid is to block members who disrupt the thread from using this part of the forum, so please, please take this on board.....cheers

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    for a start the 1980's were far more dangerous with the IRA with truck bombs and big stuff nothing like that happens these days just a few nutters with rucksacks so the government being tied up for a while is hardly life ending stuff when you think we have the police, MI5, MI6 and the army if need be so I don't see your point apart from trying to scare us out of voting YES which from your tactics I don't think you even understand in the slightest what this vote is about and the way you are going about it is like your reading straight out the no campaign handbook and failing drastically like them claiming you aren't getting answers to make it look as if we don't know what we are talking about when its you that knows very little.

     

    Appallingly insensitive considering there were 55 killed and 700 injured in the London bombings in 2005 by the nutters with rucksacks.

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

     

    No, they are not. "British" is a political term, a term of national identity. It does not mean "from the British Isles".

    sorry nick but thats not fully true. British is also a geographical term , coined in the roman times long before the birth of scotland or england. 

     

    Northern ireland is part of the island of ireland , which is in the british islands but not part of great britian. People in brittany in france are also refferred to as britons , or bretons , for historical and cultural reasons.

     

    So northern irish people , who are technically not british ,as in part of great britain ,  are still uk citizens  , even though they have the legal right to call themselves irish and hold republic of ireland passports.

     

    My nationality is on my birth certificate , which is different from people in england and wales. box 7 , nationality scottish. I am also a uk citizen , and european citizen.

     

    Geographically scottish people will still be british after indiependance , and i am sure i read that the uk and scottish governments have agreed to keep uk citizenship for two generations  after independance.. 

     

    If so that will see most of us out on this forum making it a redundant point.

    ah sorry im reading this from a few pages back and see it is being discussed

    :D

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    There's certainly a fair few undecideds on Facebook today judging by some people's threads. I've been directing them to Wings rather than bombarding them. There's also a whole host of NO voters who seem to think that campaigning on an issue equates to "ramming it down" their "throats". I must have self-selected my friends as I'm seeing little or no campaigning from anyone for a NO vote.

     

    I'm starting to think that a worst case scenario is a very, very narrow YES vote. There will be a lot of hardcore unionists with a massive chip on their shoulder, it would turn very nasty very quickly in that scenario.

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    to save any more arguments over what is or isn't Britain

     

    Great Britain refers to the Island that includes Scotland, England & Wales

    UK refers to Scotland (but for how long?) England, Wales & Northern Ireland

    The British Isles refers to the above plus the Republic of Ireland

     

    so with that in mind, An Independent Scotlnd will still be part of Great Britain & the British Isles, but not, obviously, part of the UK

     

    ...and with that, back to the discussion...cheers

    Thanks aj . 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/505670003593469952

     

    Wings now hitting 0.55 million unique users and 6.5 million pageviews. That's 13% of the entire electorate and 20% of the regularly voting electorate. The Sun sells 0.25 million copies.

     

    YesScotland Facebook new likes/day up 360% since the debate and taking 72% of new likes now.

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

     

     

     

    I wasn't sure what point you were making.

     

    Was it that Scotland shouldn't become independent even if it wanted to because it would be a bit of a temporary headache for the UK government?

     

     

    :clap:

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

     

    My nationality is on my birth certificate 

     

    Yes, I have a Scottish birth certificate.

     

    Same for my marriage one too. My French marriage certificate says my nationality is 'Ecossais' as that's the country I'm from for legal purposes under French Law; Britain not being a country in these terms, but 3 different ones (England+Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland).

     

    This is part of the problem with the concept of 'Britishness' as there isn't a country called Britain, only a (now partially) unitary state. There's no British legal system, no British Language, no British education system, No British healthcare system, No British (all encompassing) parliament (since devolution), No British Churches, No British international football teams etc. 

     

    That's because British = 4 countries/nations. 

     

    I understand that British and English are commonly used interchangeably in England, but that the same conflation (British and Scottish) is rarely heard in Scotland, apart from a group of maybe 18% of the population.

     

    It's why immigrants to Scotland tend to adopt a Scottish identity. After doing their British citizenship test, they walk out into the Streets of Glasgow to discover not that many people are British at all, and instead most call themselves Scottish. The same to an extent happens in England, Wales and NI. Must be rather confusing at first.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    I didn't realise we were married. I thought it more of a business relationship originally born of imperial ambitions. No empire so what exactly is the purpose now?

     

    Personally, I think a 'effects on rUK' would be better as a separate thread as this is a 'Scottish Politics' one; a place primarily for NW users from Scotland to discuss the politics of their country, although nothing to stop others joining in out of interest. I started it for exactly that purpose and to avoid clogging up the UK thread.

     

    A thread where people not in Scotland can discuss what effects they think an iScotland would have where they live would be appropriate, particularly if it's a Yes vote.

     

    People in Scotland are of course most interested in the effects of a Yes on Scotland. People in the rUK would I imagine, if interested, be more concerned about effects for them. Two quite different topics, although related, as they come from quite different perspectives.

    Nitpicking re. "divorce".

     

    As for the rest, I'm talking about the effects on the WHOLE of the UK, since I'm addressing what would happen between the vote and independence. You would have known that if you had read my post properly rather than jumping on a high Scottish horse.

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    I asked a valid point for discussion: given the current global crises, what would be the effect on the whole of the UK in the years when government was taken up discussing the separation.

     

    What did I get? Several YES people on here who tried to make out this was somehow an irrelevant question or that I was using this as a scare tactic. Either that or they used it to make snide and tangential comments.

     

    Sorry, but it's pathetic. The hegemony and arrogance of some people on here where a basic question asked - and a valid one - is dismissed in such a way is stunning. I'm not sure if it's because I am not Scottish or because I am in favour of NO, but you guys are engaging in crass bullying where you are simply shutting out and dismissing those who raise different ideas and questions.


    Appallingly insensitive considering there were 55 killed and 700 injured in the London bombings in 2005 by the nutters with rucksacks.

    Does it surprise you?

     

    In addition to a lack of appreciation of how events in Ukraine, the Middle East, and Northern Africa have the potential to alter drastically the world in which we live.

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I asked a valid point for discussion: given the current global crises, what would be the effect on the whole of the UK in the years when government was taken up discussing the separation.

     

     

    Why don't you try answering your own question - I'm pretty sure there's not a law somewhere where people in Scotland have to provide answers to how other countries respond to events. 

     

    You live in the big bit of the rUK, so surely you know your government better? Why don't you write to them and ask?

     

    This is really a UK politics discussion. In primarily concerned with what happens in Scotland because, well, that will be the (reborn) country I live in.

     

    If it's a Yes, the UK government cease to have governing power over Scotland on the 19th. That's what happens. Which makes the above even more important. Scotland may be sovereign in less than 3 weeks.

     

    Scotland will still be part of the UK officially, but will be a sovereign state within it. The union flag would be lowered but not removed, with the Saltire raised above it if you like.

     

    So, for example, if Westminster decided to go to war in Syria, you may find that the Scottish government state that it is not in agreement / is not involved. They may also state that Scottish soldiers need not go to fight, although they may choose to do so as part of the rUK army.

     

    You will be surprised how accommodating the UK government will be given the Scottish government would be the equivalent of e.g. the Norwegian government. No longer a regional executive, but a fully fledged government of a sovereign state.

     

    And I don't get how the Ukraine situation is anything to do with how Scots vote. I remember voting in 1997 while the Yugoslav wars raged on and that not being considered an important referendum factor. How is an even further away conflict important this time? Also a lot of global conflicts, terrorism, bombings etc.

     

    http://fas.org/irp/threat/terror_97/mideast.html

     

    Meanwhile, what will be the effect of Scottish independence on the Isle of man? I demand an answer to this question. Don't try and twist your way out of it. :wink: 

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    I asked a valid point for discussion: given the current global crises, what would be the effect on the whole of the UK in the years when government was taken up discussing the separation.

     

    What did I get? Several YES people on here who tried to make out this was somehow an irrelevant question or that I was using this as a scare tactic. Either that or they used it to make snide and tangential comments.

     

    Sorry, but it's pathetic. The hegemony and arrogance of some people on here where a basic question asked - and a valid one - is dismissed in such a way is stunning. I'm not sure if it's because I am not Scottish or because I am in favour of NO, but you guys are engaging in crass bullying where you are simply shutting out and dismissing those who raise different ideas and questions.

    Does it surprise you?

     

    In addition to a lack of appreciation of how events in Ukraine, the Middle East, and Northern Africa have the potential to alter drastically the world in which we live.

     

    Was I one of the "Several Yes people"?

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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    NICK R:

     

     

    I feel this thread is being intentionally disrupted by your obvious concerns for your future should Scotland vote YES.   I can state that I wholeheartedly sympathise with your concerns.....  (sarcasm!)

    .

     

     

    Who indeed would wish to be ruled by a Government which is ultimately compiled of Ministers and MPs  (past, present and no doubt future) whose only interest (it has been evidenced) is ultimately themselves?  Who indeed would wish to be ruled by a Government that is knee deep, at the behest of the USA, in involvement in global conflicts to control  countries' resources  at whatever cost to their indigenous population ?  Who indeed would wish to be run  by a Government swimming in a  cesspool of Zionism,  corruption, lies, theft, greed and now, just for good measure, we have the possibility of alleged, organised paedophilia?

     

    ETA:

    For someone who originally proclaimed to neither favour YES or NO, you now  finally admit to supporting NO.   That is your prerogative.  However, I take exception to your comment about lack of appreciation of current events in Ukraine, Middle East and North Africa which will alter drastically the world in which we live!   Perhaps you would be better directing that disgusting comment to Westminster!

     

     

    I shall be voting YES......... precisely BECAUSE of the Westminster Government!

     

     

    If you wish to reply to this post, perhaps the UK political thread would be more appropriate ?   as I will not answer you in here.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    .

    Edited by Blitzen
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Why don't you try answering your own question - I'm pretty sure there's not a law somewhere where people in Scotland have to provide answers to how other countries respond to events. 

     

    You live in the big bit of the rUK, so surely you know your government better? Why don't you write to them and ask?

     

    This is really a UK politics discussion. In primarily concerned with what happens in Scotland because, well, that will be the (reborn) country I live in.

     

    If it's a Yes, the UK government cease to have governing power over Scotland on the 19th. That's what happens. Which makes the above even more important. Scotland may be sovereign in less than 3 weeks.

     

    Scotland will still be part of the UK officially, but will be a sovereign state within it. The union flag would be lowered but not removed, with the Saltire raised above it if you like.

     

    So, for example, if Westminster decided to go to war in Syria, you may find that the Scottish government state that it is not in agreement / is not involved. They may also state that Scottish soldiers need not go to fight, although they may choose to do so as part of the rUK army.

     

    You will be surprised how accommodating the UK government will be given the Scottish government would be the equivalent of e.g. the Norwegian government. No longer a regional executive, but a fully fledged government of a sovereign state.

     

    And I don't get how the Ukraine situation is anything to do with how Scots vote. I remember voting in 1997 while the Yugoslav wars raged on and that not being considered an important referendum factor. How is an even further away conflict important this time? Also a lot of global conflicts, terrorism, bombings etc.

     

    http://fas.org/irp/threat/terror_97/mideast.html

     

    Meanwhile, what will be the effect of Scottish independence on the Isle of man? I demand an answer to this question. Don't try and twist your way out of it. :wink: 

     

    Are you deliberately misunderstanding? 

    Last time: I'm talking about the period between a YES vote and actual independence. NEWSFLASH: In that period you will still be part of the UK. Scotland will NOT cease to be governed by the UK government on the 19th. How can you be so ignorant of the basics, yet feel so able to contribute in such a supercilious manner?

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    NICK R:

     

     

    I feel this thread is being intentionally disrupted by your obvious concerns for your future should Scotland vote YES.   I can state that I wholeheartedly sympathise with your concerns.

    .

     

     

    Who indeed would wish to be ruled by a Government which is ultimately compiled of Ministers and MPs  (past, present and no doubt future) whose only interest (it has been evidenced) is ultimately themselves?  Who indeed would wish to be ruled by a Government that is knee deep, at the behest of the USA, in involvement in global conflicts to control  countries' resources  at whatever cost to their indigenous population ?  Who indeed would wish to be run  by a Government swimming in a  cesspool of Zionism,  corruption, lies, theft, greed and now, just for good measure, we have the possibility of alleged, organised paedophilia?

     

    ETA:

    For someone who originally proclaimed to neither favour YES or NO, you now  finally admit to supporting NO.   That is your prerogative.  However, I take exception to your comment about lack of appreciation of current events in Ukraine, Middle East and North Africa which will alter drastically the world in which we live!   Perhaps you would be better directing that disgusting comment to Westminster!

     

     

    I shall be voting YES......... precisely BECAUSE of the Westminster Government!

     

     

    If you wish to reply to this post, perhaps the UK political thread would be more appropriate ?   as I will not answer you in here.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    .

     

    I'm not concerned about "me" after Scotland leaves. I'm talking about the period between the vote and independence. Is it a perfectly valid point to raise in here.

     

    And AT NO POINT have I hidden the fact that I was in favour of a NO.

     

    Lies, misrepresentation, and misunderstanding. Is this something you are all determined to employ when responding to those who dare raise other points?

     

    As for you taking offence at my comment about Ukraine,etc, I was talking very particularly about BUS and his idea that the world of the 80s was far more worrying than the world of today. Once more: try making sure you've understood a post before replying to it. How is it "disgusting" to post that BUS doesn't seem to appreciate the dangers the world is currently facing? You should be ashamed of calling my post disgusting when you haven't even understood what I was saying.

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Are you deliberately misunderstanding? 

    Last time: I'm talking about the period between a YES vote and actual independence. NEWSFLASH: In that period you will still be part of the UK. Scotland will NOT cease to be governed by the UK government on the 19th. How can you be so ignorant of the basics, yet feel so able to contribute in such a supercilious manner?

     

    Sorry buddy, but a Yes put's the UK government out of Scotland's No 10 so to speak. That's how democracy works.

     

    Sure Scotland will be part of the UK to the official day, but no longer will the Scottish parliament have to agree to pass Westminster laws into Scottish law. Westminster would not longer have a mandate to govern Scotland. It's quite clearly spelled out in the white paper. Of course to ensure a smooth transition, both governments would ensure continuity of law on appropriate matters, including defence etc.

     

    That's the way things work. Scotland does not need permission to be independent. It joined of its own free will and is united under international treaty as covered by the Vienna convention.

     

    Alternatively, Westminster could send the English army in and make itself a pariah state in the eyes of the world. Get UN sanctions against it while it battles an armed rebellion. That's all a bit fantasy though.

     I'm talking about the period between the vote and independence. Is it a perfectly valid point to raise in here.

     

     

    1. Read Scottish Government's white paper (your answer from Scotland - you already have it so no need to ask here).

     

    2. Ask Westminster government (where the answers you are missing must come from).

     

    3. imagine something roughly in the middle if there is some discrepancy.

    I've just put up my YES poster in the window.  A proud moment for a Yorkshireman in Scotland.

     

    G'an yersel big man.

    Edited by scottish skier
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