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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

    The problem is that the term British commonly means - and this is how it is used and understood world wide - "from the UK". If the Scots want to insist on saying they are "British" then they are going to have to put up with people understanding this as meaning that they are saying they are from the UK, because that is how the word is used.

    I know what you mean......it's all down to the individual person's viewpoint of whether they consider themselves British in an Independent Scotland.......worldwide, a lot of people still refer to England as the whole of Britain, but perhaps this isn't the best time or thread to discuss that ;)

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    Can we have a new thread for BUS and Nick R to continue their argument over who is right when both are wrong (to varying degrees)! Britain is a geographic term - British is currently (but wrongly) used as interchangable with a citizen of the United Kingdom, but upon Scottish Independence Scotland will still be part of the island of British and thus it's entirely correct to say we are still British - because that is what we will remain, a resident of the island of Britain.

    Damn it I got sucked in! I lose…. :o

    Edited by skifreak
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    Posted
  • Location: Rushden, East Northamptonshire
  • Location: Rushden, East Northamptonshire

    now put things in a bit more perspective here the little purple mark i have put in is the clair field 8 billion barrels of oil then look at the rest of the grey area that could produce oil we would be set for a long time

     

    attachicon.gifoil1.jpg

    The Clair field was discovered in 1979 when BP drilled a wildcat well. It's taken until now to get the infrastructure in place to start producing from it. It still remains a bit of an enigma, because the reservoir is hosted in the Devonian. The majority of discoveries in the NW European continental margin are based on the prolific Jurassic Kimmeridge Clay as a source rock. A bit deeper, though absent in the area are the Carboniferous (Westphalian) coal measures. It is unlikely that Clair was charged from earlier (i.e. Lewisian - Cambrian) as the total organic content (TOC) could not support it. More likely, fractured basement has been charged updip from the Flett sub basin. If you think that Clair has 8 billion barrels of recoverable reserves you are sadly mistaken. 1 billion is more likely. A huge field, don't get me wrong and could keep producing until 2050 based on a recovery rate of 40-50%.

     

    The fact that it has taken 30 years to start producing from the Clair field tells you a little bit about the difficulties about exploration & production in frontier areas. BP are threatening to pull out of Scotland in the instance of a 'yes' vote. The fact that Clair even got to where it is now was due to some de-regulation, tax breaks and DECC. Scotland will lose DECC and Salmond is just a greedy sod. It is far too late for Scotland to adopt the Norwegian system to build up a social fund. Salmond will attempt to bleed it dry and private investment will go elsewhere, leaving the West of Shetlands. Oil revenues will stay flat and decline.

     

    Unless Salmond sets up a Scottish national oil company in a similar vain to Statoil, because of the uncertainty and no doubt the fiscal demands he will set up, expect private operators to pull out.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

    Can we have a new thread for BUS and Nick R to continue their argument over who is right when both are wrong (to varying degrees)! Britain is a geographic term - British is currently (but wrongly) used as interchangable with a citizen of the United Kingdom, but upon Scottish Independence Scotland will still be part of the island of British and thus it's entirely correct to say we are still British - because that is what we will remain, a resident of the island of Britain.

    Damn it I got sucked in! I lose…. :o

    or if Brussels gets it way, we can all be referred to as 'European' as part of the Republic of Greater Europe with President Blair as it's head of state.....*shudder*  :bomb:  :ninja:  :laugh:

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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level

    The Clair field was discovered in 1979 when BP drilled a wildcat well. It's taken until now to get the infrastructure in place to start producing from it. It still remains a bit of an enigma, because the reservoir is hosted in the Devonian. The majority of discoveries in the NW European continental margin are based on the prolific Jurassic Kimmeridge Clay as a source rock. A bit deeper, though absent in the area are the Carboniferous (Westphalian) coal measures. It is unlikely that Clair was charged from earlier (i.e. Lewisian - Cambrian) as the total organic content (TOC) could not support it. More likely, fractured basement has been charged updip from the Flett sub basin. If you think that Clair has 8 billion barrels of recoverable reserves you are sadly mistaken. 1 billion is more likely. A huge field, don't get me wrong and could keep producing until 2050 based on a recovery rate of 40-50%.

     

    The fact that it has taken 30 years to start producing from the Clair field tells you a little bit about the difficulties about exploration & production in frontier areas. BP are threatening to pull out of Scotland in the instance of a 'yes' vote. The fact that Clair even got to where it is now was due to some de-regulation, tax breaks and DECC. Scotland will lose DECC and Salmond is just a greedy sod. It is far too late for Scotland to adopt the Norwegian system to build up a social fund. Salmond will attempt to bleed it dry and private investment will go elsewhere, leaving the West of Shetlands. Oil revenues will stay flat and decline.

     

    Unless Salmond sets up a Scottish national oil company in a similar vain to Statoil, because of the uncertainty and no doubt the fiscal demands he will set up, expect private operators to pull out.

     

     

    IF they BP really do pull out then we will be exactly like Norway because the government can then take over producing the oil and take all the revenue from it but I really don't see big companies throwing profit and £13.5 billion they just invested down the drain plus why have BP just finished building a big new headquarters building in Aberdeen if they plan to pull out.

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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level

    BP's own words clair ridge estimated 8 billion barrels

     

    http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/bp-worldwide/bp-united-kingdom/our-operations/bp-north-sea-region/bp-north-sea-assets-major-projects.html

     

     

    Clair

    Clair, the first fixed platform in the west of Shetland area, started producing in 2005. With an estimated eight billion barrels of oil in place, it is the largest oilfield in Europe. The field was discovered in 1977, but it was only with significant advances in technology and innovative engineering that the first phase of development was made possible. Clair Ridge, the £4.5 billion second phase of development, was confirmed in late 2011 and will see two new platforms installed and production starting in 2016. In 2013, a major appraisal drilling programme began to help define a possible third phase of development for Clair.

    Edited by Buriedundersnow
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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level

    George Galloway gets broken jaw and rib from vicious attack in a street in west London, England  

     

    http://news.sky.com/story/1327097/george-galloways-jaw-broken-in-street-attack

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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Generally speaking letters to the Times regarding Scottish independence show a complete ignorance of the reality of the situation and the feelings of many Scots. Much along the lines of one letter during WW2 complaining of the shortage of lychees in London.

     

    But there is a letter today that is spot on. Regarding England as a nation the author is appalled at the failure of socio-economic neo-liberalism that creates a tiny powerful elite while marginalising everybody else.

     

    He goes on to say, "From housing to welfare to justice, to education to economic fairness we in England are morally skewered. That Scotland has a chance to shake off the legacy of elitism and exclusion is fantastic. In doing so I hope Scotland provides the radical mind shift that we in England so desperately need to embrace fairer ways of doing things".

     

    Amen to that.

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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level

    alex salmond on BBC highlands and islands yesterday morning answering questions

     

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04fc9q9

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    so true :rofl:  :rofl:

     

    That is utterly brilliant!
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    Posted
  • Location: Irlam
  • Location: Irlam

    No, I'm not a Tory. Although quite what that has to do with anything or with how I might have found a clip on Youtube escapes me.

    Someone forwarded the link. I think that had used their fingers and brain in combination to type words into the search function of youtube... Does that mean they must be a Tory??

    I second it.

    Nick R, a Tory?

    If Nick R is a Tory then I'm the Pope. I know, I see his posts on TheWeatherOutlook.

    How has the debate stooped to this level of ignorance?

    Edited by Weather-history
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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    George Galloway gets broken jaw and rib from vicious attack in a street in west London, England

    Ach well, at least they didn't blame it on the YES Campaign!  :rolleyes:

    Edited by Blitzen
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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level

    Mark Wallace â€@MarkWal15 28s

    Help us predict the outcome of the Scottish Referendum by voting on our map. UK: 63% yes Scots: 84% yes #indyref http://games.usvsth3m.com/scotchland-postcode-referendum/ â€¦      

     

    In FK5, 84% of 55 voters said yes.

    In the broader FK area, 89% said yes.

    Our current UK average is 63% yes (but in Scotland, it's 84%)!

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    Posted
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level
  • Weather Preferences: dry sunny average summers and really cold snowy winters
  • Location: falkirk, scotland, 16.505m, 54.151ft above sea level

    Ach well, at least they didn't blame it on a YES supporter!  :rolleyes:

     

     

    ano and I bet he is glad its not an egg as from the amount of outrage clearly they can kill a man :rofl:

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Glad I went to watch a film on the telly last night.

     

    As per my last post, anyone in Scotland who holds British citizenship will have the right to retain it. If they do, then normal rules apply for their newly born etc.

     

    Same applies for Scots currently living elsewhere - they can apply for Scottish citizenship under the same rules that apply to British citizenship.

     

    So, if you are a Scot that wants to remain British, you can. 

     

    This has already been agreed between both governments.

     

    As for national identity, that is your own. You chose that, not governments. I am not British in national identity according to the census for example, having ticked just the box next to Scottish (although I paused here, in the end deciding that adding British might be construed as an endorsement of Westminster rule which I could not do).  I remain however a British citizen and European citizen too due to the current constitutional situation of my country, Scotland.

     

    There will be people in Eire who tick 'British + Irish'. My wife is 'French + Scottish'. It is your personal choice.

     

    So, on both counts of citizenship/nationality and national identity, anyone claiming Scots must cease to be British if there is a yes is simply wrong.

     

    Furthermore, nearly 10% of people in Scotland are English born. 30% have an identity which involves English, British, Welsh, Northern Irish and Cornish (+/- a Scottish component). In terms of negotiations, they will be tough but pragmatic, unless of course respective governments wish harm on their own citizens living on the other side of respective borders. 

     

    Now, lets put the subject to bed based on the simple facts in hand.

     

    BUS can be British in both natID and nationality post Yes if he wishes, as can anyone else in Scots who is currently a British citizen.

     

    ----

     

    patronisingdebateman.jpg

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Glad I went to watch a film on the telly last night.

     

    As per my last post, anyone in Scotland who holds British citizenship will have the right to retain it. If they do, then normal rules apply for their newly born etc.

     

    Same applies for Scots currently living elsewhere - they can apply for Scottish citizenship under the same rules that apply to British citizenship.

     

    So, if you are a Scot that wants to remain British, you can. 

     

    This has already been agreed between both governments.

     

    As for national identity, that is your own. You chose that, not governments. I am not British in national identity according to the census for example, having ticked just the box next to Scottish (although I paused here, in the end deciding that adding British might be construed as an endorsement of Westminster rule which I could not do).  I remain however a British citizen and European citizen too due to the current constitutional situation of my country, Scotland.

     

    There will be people in Eire who tick 'British + Irish'. My wife is 'French + Scottish'. It is your personal choice.

     

    So, on both counts of citizenship/nationality and national identity, anyone claiming Scots must cease to be British if there is a yes is simply wrong.

     

    Furthermore, nearly 10% of people in Scotland are English born. 30% have an identity which involves English, British, Welsh, Northern Irish and Cornish (+/- a Scottish component). In terms of negotiations, they will be tough but pragmatic, unless of course respective governments wish harm on their own citizens living on the other side of respective borders. 

     

    Now, lets put the subject to bed based on the simple facts in hand.

     

    BUS can be British in both natID and nationality post Yes if he wishes, as can anyone else in Scots who is currently a British citizen.

     

    ----

     

    patronisingdebateman.jpg

    Which is actually what I said: you can choose to remain British as well as Scottish - a dual nationality. But once the you get 3rd generation Scots being born, they will not automatically have the right to be British.:-)

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    As for the subject of societal breakdown due to conflicting loyalties....

     

    If that was the case, it should already be occurring and having been so since, e.g. devolution.

     

    It isn't happening because Scotland is too Scottish. 74% voted Yes in 1997 and Scotland has become even less British since.

     

    People can note in the bit of Ireland that became independent there is no societal divisions on the subject. That only occurs in the bit that Britain still occupies. Partitioning countries does this.

     

    Malta voted narrowly for independence by 54.5% in 1964. I'm not aware of it being an island torn by strife on the matter.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Which is actually what I said: you can choose to remain British as well as Scottish - a dual nationality. But once the you get 3rd generation Scots being born, they will not automatically have the right to be British.:-)

     

    If they have parents with British passports, they are sorted.

     

    I think by 3rd generation though, certainly if they had Scottish parents, they'd probably not be particularly interested in being British.

     

    At the moment, people turning of voting age in Scotland are the least British of any generation alive at up to 72% Scottish only; 10% above the national level. That's with Scotland still part of the British 'state'.

     

    British as an identity / component of identity in Scotland peaks in those born in 1944. It has been in decline since; a relatively short-lived concept (in terms of applying to large sections of the population) which grew out of the post war socialist/social democratic 'solidarity' political consensus. Hence we are where we are.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    One thing that genuinely concerns me is that, given the global context of conflict, tensions, and financial problems, what we don't need know is to have the UK government's time and attention effectively taken up by working out the details of the divorce proceedings in the event of a YES vote.

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    If they have parents with British passports, they are sorted.

     

    I think by 3rd generation though, certainly if they had Scottish parents, they'd probably not be particularly interested in being British.

     

    At the moment, people turning of voting age in Scotland are the least British of any generation alive at up to 72% Scottish only; 10% above the national level. That's with Scotland still part of the British 'state'.

     

    British as an identity in Scotland peaks in those born in 1944. It has been in decline since. Hence we are where we are.

    What I mean is that it is disingenuous to say that an independent Scotland wouldn't change the fact that a Scot is British, full stop. Scots already born would retain dual citizenship, but thereafter, Scots CAN BE British in that same way that anyone from any nationality can also be of another nationality if they fulfil the requirements for citizenship.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    One thing that genuinely concerns me is that, given the global context of conflict, tensions, and financial problems, what we don't need know is to have the UK government's time and attention effectively taken up by working out the details of the divorce proceedings in the event of a YES vote.

     

    Well, they created this situation. They've only themselves to blame.

     

    A political party / cause - in this case the union - can only bring itself down by making itself unpopular. Which is what successive Westminster governments have succeeding in doing. This opens the door for an alternative to rise; in this case the independence movement.

     

    The most recent example is that, if when Scotland elected a devo max coalition in 2007 the UK parties had listened and responded out of respect for the democratic process and Scotland, we would not be in this position now.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Well, they created this situation. They've only themselves to blame.

     

    A political party / cause - in this case the union - can only bring itself down by making itself unpopular. Which is what successive Westminster governments have succeeding in doing. This opens the door for an alternative to rise; in this case the independence movement.

     

    The most recent example is that, if when Scotland elected a devo max coalition in 2007 the UK parties had listened and responded out of respect for the democratic process and Scotland, we would not be in this position now.

    All well and good, but you basically ignore the point I'm making to make yet another party political point. Banging on about the causes doesn't address the reality of the situation were it to occur and its consequences in the areas I have mentioned.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Seems Labour are turning on Douglas Alexander, their chief strategist and the man that's lost every election he fought in that position.

     

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/labour-critics-pin-blame-for-new-no-woes-on-alexander.25188352

     

    Labour critics pin blame for No woes on Douglas Alexander
     
    Senior Labour sources have rounded on Douglas Alexander, blaming the Shadow Foreign Secretary for the No campaign's recent woes - and in particular an advert designed to appeal to women which led to accusations of patronising sexism.

     


    All well and good, but you basically ignore the point I'm making to make yet another party political point. Banging on about the causes doesn't address the reality of the situation were it to occur and its consequences in the areas I have mentioned.

     

    I wasn't sure what point you were making.

     

    Was it that Scotland shouldn't become independent even if it wanted to because it would be a bit of a temporary headache for the UK government?

     

    And I wasn't making a party political point, but simply pointing out a global phenomenon which very much applies here.

     

    The UK press love to attack Salmond as the evil mastermind behind the constitutional crisis. They are attacking the wrong side. The UK parties handed the 2011 election (>51%) to pro-indy parties on a plate.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Seems Labour are turning on Douglas Alexander, their chief strategist and the man that's lost every election he fought in that position.

     

     

    I wasn't sure what point you were making.

     

    Was it that Scotland shouldn't become independent even if it wanted to because it would be a bit of a temporary headache for the UK government?

     

    And I wasn't making a party political point, but simply pointing out a global phenomenon which very much applies here.

    I'm asking for us to consider and analyse how much it would be detrimental to UK governance in the next few years, during possibly the most worrying period in terms of conflict and global dangers. Was hoping to widen the debate, that's all.

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