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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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SS, YES sticker went on my car's rear window this morning. Seen a few of them so far but not very often up here. Can't say I've ever sighted a UKOK one.

Don't think I'd get away with one on the window of the house, not unless I can persuade the other half of the arguments. Not going to be easy since she is very reluctant to talk about it and I'm not pushing the matter. Was hoping leaving stuff like the white paper, recent Sunday Heralds etc lying around would get her to at least pick them up and flick through out of curiosity but its not working so far.

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And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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Yes sticker went on car a few months ago.I haven't seen that many.I laugh when I see the UKOK.Its like an admittance of mediocrity or acceptance of such.Hardly inspiring! In any case the UK is not OK its a mess hence we are having a referendum.Was in Stirling last week and it could be my imagination but it felt very Scottish indeed.More saltires than I can ever remember.The cafe I was in had meetings for business for Scotland advertised along with Bannockburn events.Seems our nation is waking from its slumber.

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Not a YES sign, but a sign that people are thinking about it being YES. The highest Royal Mail postbox is in the Ptarmigan Restaurant on CairnGorm at 3600ft, it used to have a sign stating it was the highest post box in the UK. It now has a big new photographic background of CairnGorm and the new text states 'Highest Post Box in the British Isles'.

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Yes sticker went on car a few months ago.I haven't seen that many.I laugh when I see the UKOK.Its like an admittance of mediocrity or acceptance of such.Hardly inspiring! In any case the UK is not OK its a mess hence we are having a referendum.Was in Stirling last week and it could be my imagination but it felt very Scottish indeed.More saltires than I can ever remember.The cafe I was in had meetings for business for Scotland advertised along with Bannockburn events.Seems our nation is waking from its slumber.

Great to feel so positive about a Yes vote but you need to keep things in perspective. The grass is always grener and all of that. An independent Scotland would face lots of problems and challenges in the years ahead. I wonder how much disappointment there could be a few years down the line when an Independent Scotland isn't quite as rosy as some might wish.

.....And I wouldn't dispute that the Uk is Ok, far from perfect but ok as is NZ, Australia, Ireland etc.Keep things in perspective and look around at the vast majority of countries....they're not ok....Zimbabwe (where Mrs Kiwi comes from) might be an extreme example...but I for one wouldn't want to live in most  countries around the world. We're priveleged to be able to live here in the UK. Too many people take it for granted.

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Don't think I'd get away with one on the window of the house, not unless I can persuade the other half of the arguments. Not going to be easy since she is very reluctant to talk about it and I'm not pushing the matter. Was hoping leaving stuff like the white paper, recent Sunday Heralds etc lying around would get her to at least pick them up and flick through out of curiosity but its not working so far.

 

With the combined right-wing UKIP + Tory vote at 50% in the UK and recent polls showing Labour just 1 point ahead of the Tories, how lucky is she feeling?

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Great to feel so positive about a Yes vote but you need to keep things in perspective. The grass is always grener and all of that. An independent Scotland would face lots of problems and challenges in the years ahead. I wonder how much disappointment there could be a few years down the line when an Independent Scotland isn't quite as rosy as some might wish.

.....And I wouldn't dispute that the Uk is Ok, far from perfect but ok as is NZ, Australia, Ireland etc.Keep things in perspective and look around at the vast majority of countries....they're not ok....Zimbabwe (where Mrs Kiwi comes from) might be an extreme example...but I for one wouldn't want to live in most  countries around the world. We're priveleged to be able to live here in the UK. Too many people take it for granted.

 

Only the pro-union side really talk about an independent Scotland being a land of milk and honey - or rather not. I've never heard Yes say anything of the sort. Rather, they say Scotland will be like other countries and have it's ups and downs. 

 

The difference is, it will make its own decisions and tailor it's policies to suit Scotland; which is economically and socially very different to the rUK (if it wasn't, there'd be Scottish Parliament, no SNP Gov and no referendum in September). 

 

I imagine the residents of NZ, Australia and Ireland do not regret their decision to leave London rule and govern themselves, even during tough times.

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Cameron won't debate Salmond as he's very poor at it. It would certainly boost the yes campaign even further.

 

Why should he? Salmond is the leader of a secondary parliament. 

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Why should he? Salmond is the leader of a secondary parliament. 

 

Yes, and in Scotland, Dave's the leader of a secondary parliament.

 

 

Meanwhile. A clue to the pro-union campaign's thinking about Scotland's status in the Empire.

 

Posted Image

 

Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves...

 

------

 

Oh, and the *Toxic Tories* are planning a series of events in the northern colony of Scotland as the referendum approaches.

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/prime-minister-is-toxic-to-the-no-campaign-insist-labour.24158067

 

Excellent. :clap:

 

*© Scottish Labour.

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With the combined right-wing UKIP + Tory vote at 50% in the UK and recent polls showing Labour just 1 point ahead of the Tories, how lucky is she feeling?

 

Since she's no lover of UKIP and especially their anti-immigration stance I'm hoping the Euro results will wake her up a bit. She's not really that "political" so won't go actively looking for information, and the Euro Elections seem to be getting very little coverage at the moment that I've noticed. I don't think she knows the current Euro polling and will probably get a bit of a shock in a couple of weeks time.

 

She's English and all of her family still live there so I'm aware that she's starting at a completely different emotional position from where I did. She's lived up here for around 12yrs now, loves it, and I seriously doubt she'd want to go back to live in England despite missing having her family around. The thing that irks though is that I think if she looked at the aspirations for an Independent Scotland she'd probably come around, but so far she hasn't. If she does, decides she's still a NO then fair enough, I can respect that as it's a decision made consciously after considering both arguments.

 

Being a teacher there's a lot of arguments I think would resonate with her. Free education for a start. I doubt I'd have gone to college if I'd had to pay (I actually got a grant in my first year, and traveling expenses throughout, no need to pay it back, remember that?), the wife left school with virtually no qualifications because her parents effectively needed her to work and contribute. She only completed her OU degree in her 30s and then went into teaching as a result. Our daughter is currently at RGU and both of us are frequently impressing on her the importance of coming out at the end of it with as little debt as possible (she also works part-time in a care home). I think both my wife and I strongly believe that access to education should be based purely on ability, not ability to pay, and that the state ultimately benefits from it.

 

Again, her job exposes her to the effects of poverty much more than I get to see in my cosseted existence. For example the primary school kid who was excited at Xmas coming because Santa was going to bring him a new pair of glasses. Our daughter at Uni is studying Social Work so will be even more in the thick of it if she does pursue a career in that area eventually. To my mind a more socially just society is a necessity. I think that was the argument that resonated most with my daughter when I took her to the debate at Aberdeen Uni a while back and I'm sure it would resonate with the wife too. I can't see any meaningful social justice being achieved with the direction Westminster politics has taken in the last decade or so.

 

That's just two areas. There's many more...defense spending...wars in Iraq/Afganistan...Trident...all of which I'm sure she'd be more than happy to see a change in direction on. Protection of NHS is another (we could probably get a doctors appointment within 2hrs of calling the surgery, her parents struggle to get one within 2 weeks!)

 

Kiwi, Yes you look at the news at times and realise just how privileged we are compared to most. That doesn't mean we can't strive to do better though, and yes it will be difficult at times, damn difficult. We'll screw up too on occasions but hopefully at least we'll have tried to make things better!

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Only the pro-union side really talk about an independent Scotland being a land of milk and honey - or rather not. I've never heard Yes say anything of the sort. Rather, they say Scotland will be like other countries and have it's ups and downs. 

 

The difference is, it will make its own decisions and tailor it's policies to suit Scotland; which is economically and socially very different to the rUK (if it wasn't, there'd be Scottish Parliament, no SNP Gov and no referendum in September). 

 

I imagine the residents of NZ, Australia and Ireland do not regret their decision to leave London rule and govern themselves, even during tough times.

Independence evolved in NZ rather than happening on any fixed date, which I think made the whole transition an awful lot easier than it might otherwise have been. ....But you're correct, the overwhelming majority of residents are very proud of being an independent nation.

 

 

What I still can't get my head around is while the Scots are keen to make their own decisions and tailor policies to suit Scotland why are they equally hell bent on a currency and banking union with England which to work succesfully would require tight fiscal rules between both countries and controls over government spending in Scotland?

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Yes or No: teenagers' opinions on Scottish referendum

Scotland's government has dropped the voting age to 16 for this year's referendum on independence. Two opinion polls and Reuters interviews with 25 Scottish teenagers in 10 different locations suggest the ruling Scottish National party (SNP) cannot be sure of their support in the 18 September referendum. Overall, polls show Scots remain doubtful about separation, although the proportion of those supporting independence has increased over the past year.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/gallery/2014/may/07/yes-or-no-teenagers-opinions-on-scottish-referendum-in-pictures

 

Bish

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Independence evolved in NZ rather than happening on any fixed date, which I think made the whole transition an awful lot easier than it might otherwise have been. ....But you're correct, the overwhelming majority of residents are very proud of being an independent nation.

 

 

What I still can't get my head around is while the Scots are keen to make their own decisions and tailor policies to suit Scotland why are they equally hell bent on a currency and banking union with England which to work succesfully would require tight fiscal rules between both countries and controls over government spending in Scotland?

 

I wasn't aware Scots were hell bent a currency and banking union. Polls have a variety of options favoured by the electorate. The Scottish government have that one down as the most sensible plan A for it and the rUK. Last thing either country needs is a run on the £, crash in the UK economy etc.

 

But then you seem to have answered your own question here.

 

Lots of discussion earlier in the thread; silly to repeat in any detail.

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Yes or No: teenagers' opinions on Scottish referendum

Scotland's government has dropped the voting age to 16 for this year's referendum on independence. Two opinion polls and Reuters interviews with 25 Scottish teenagers in 10 different locations suggest the ruling Scottish National party (SNP) cannot be sure of their support in the 18 September referendum. Overall, polls show Scots remain doubtful about separation, although the proportion of those supporting independence has increased over the past year.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/gallery/2014/may/07/yes-or-no-teenagers-opinions-on-scottish-referendum-in-pictures

 

Bish

 

I smile at these articles.

 

If 16-17 year olds backed the union strongly and turned out at exactly level as the rest of the electorate (which is highly unlikley), let's say 60 N vs 40 Y, that would yield a swing of 0.3% to No.

 

Been funny watching the pro-union campaign spend a lot of time and money targetting this group. The SNP have a long standing commitment to lowering the voting age for all elections to 16; they are a socially liberal, democratic party after all. Here they just had the opportunity (although I suspect they knew BT would go on a wild goose chase too). I fully support the move and like the idea of encouraging younger people to take an interest in politics.

 

On this subject, Yougov did a survey for British Future (sampling ended 23rd April). 17-21 year olds.

 

Westminster election intentions for the Scottish sample:

 

37% SNP
28% Lab
14% Con
12% Green
4% Lib
2% Other
2% UKIP
1% Respect
 
~50% for pro-indy parties.
 
The moderate centre to left and liberal doing well of course (only 16% in total for strong right parties). When the rUK votes ~50% or more extreme right on the 22nd May this could swing the young ones more than any other group.
 
In the meantime, an important section is the over 55s, particularly the retired. They are a large group and generally turn out in big numbers. More No for now.
 
Reassurance for them today all over the headlines. 
 
Of course those that wrote a letter asking were told exactly this. Good that everyone knows now.
 
Scottish independence: Pensions 'secure' post-Yes, says UK minister
 
Older people would be entitled to current levels of state pension in an independent Scotland, according to the UK pensions minister.
 
Steve Webb told a Westminster committee those who had "accumulated rights" would be entitled to the money.
 

 

 
 
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The will it or won't it be a currency union still has a lot of mileage however the problem at the end of the day may not end up being with rUK voters but Scottish voters who won't be happy with how much control Westminster might still have.

 

At the end of the day whoever negotiates this aspect has to respect the wishes of the Scottish people, this isn't just negotiating whats good for business but cutting a deal that will be accepted by voters on both sides of the border.

 

I suspect this will turn out as follows, with a Yes vote regardless of the current stance re currency union. There will be negotiations, Westminster will ask for too much as a way of selling it to the rUK, Scotland will say sorry you're making unfair demands.

 

That gives both sides an out which looks reasonable, Salmond et al say we can't recommend this deal to the Scottish people, we tried but instead will either go with our own currency or the Euro. Westminster can say we had to put a lot of constraints on a currency union to protect rUK, we accept that Scotland has to be happy with the deal, both sides walk away with reputations intact.

 

The Yes side and a lot of Scots IMO won't be that disappointed, the Euro isn't really the toxic issue it once was and the Scottish economy is much more robust and diversified than countries which had a lot of recent problems, essentially Salmond IMO never wanted a currency union but politically he daren't mention the Euro as it would give the No side a lot of ammunition during the campaign.

 

Also I would suspect the EU will be a lot speedier with negotiations if Scotland was willing to take up the Euro, even if its not the Euro but a Scottish currency I still think that would be good for Scotland.

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Sunday Herald sales just shot up 30%.

 

Vast majority of shops sold out. I wonder what the figure would be if there'd been more available for sale.

 

I suspect they're pleased to have come out for Yes.

 

EDIT. Oh and Wings over Scotland just hit 4,000,000 page views in the past 30 days. Impressive.

 

---

 

Aye Nick. Osborne was a fool to take Darling's advice and rule out a currency union. He should have stuck to his 'highly unlikely' line. 

 

I guess he figured Darling understood Scotland as he came from Scotland. Darling's British though. Was a big f-up. No only did it cause a fair sized closure in the polls, boosting Yes, but made life more difficult for the rUK government if it's a Yes.

 

Anyone seen Darling BTW?

 

Is it me or has he largely vanished?

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Sunday Herald sales just shot up 30%.

 

Vast majority of shops sold out. I wonder what the figure would be if there'd been more available for sale.

 

I suspect they're pleased to have come out for Yes.

 

EDIT. Oh and Wings over Scotland just hit 4,000,000 page views in the past 30 days. Impressive.

 

---

 

Aye Nick. Osborne was a fool to take Darling's advice and rule out a currency union. He should have stuck to his 'highly unlikely' line. 

 

I guess he figured Darling understood Scotland as he came from Scotland. Darling's British though. Was a big f-up. No only did it cause a fair sized closure in the polls, boosting Yes, but made life more difficult for the rUK government if it's a Yes.

 

Anyone seen Darling BTW?

 

Is it me or has he largely vanished?

Apparently Darling is off to LA to get his eyebrows sorted out! And to get his facial muscles sorted out so he can crack a smile. You know I've never seen the man smile!

 

This did make me laugh for all the wrong reasons, its the latest Better Together cinema ad, please tell me the Yes campaign aren't planning anything so banal and nauseating! Have you seen the ad, its called:

 

We want the best of both worlds:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5626-PF_GM

 

I was waiting for the doves to appear but unfortunately they suffered the misfortune of hitting some power lines above Better Together HQ.

 

Don't think I've spared the Yes campaign, if I see some dreadful adverts I'll be right on them!

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Ha ha.

 

Yes, I've seen it. Aside from the cringe worthy emotional stuff, even the more factual stuff was bad.

 

Being 'part of one of the world's biggest economies' is really important to the man on the street. Must make e.g. the Danes feel crap. 

 

I thought it was Tories who got all excited about that sort of thing, not Labo.... Oh, hold on.  :) 

 

Yes Scotland are doing cinema adds. I haven't seen any yet.

 

On their youtube site this is most recent vid. Aye, you could argue a tad cheesy, but cheery enough.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBwZIoRjJTw

 

The most recent TV PPB on independence was from the SNP. Video older, but updated and on prime-time month or so back.

 

It's hard hitting.

 

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Was chatting today about the growing appearance of 'Yes' posters, bumper stickers, t-shirts etc at work. Certainly making people take notice and think "well if they're thinking that...".

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Hi SS I much preferred the second ad, although the guitary bit at the end I thought lost the mood of the previous part. In terms of cheese factor it didn't hit any alarm bells! The first ad IMO was a bit dull.

 

Overall I'd give the first a 6/10 the second 8/10. The Better Together ad gets a lowly 3/10 !

 

I certainly think the second Yes add managed the right balance between a serious message but also enough hope and positivity in the message. Without the guitary bit at the end it would have got a 9/10.

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Newsflash.Darling spotted in Catalonia behind a Spanish flag urging Catalans to stick with Spanish Rule!Well he does move from failure to failure seamlessly.

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This did make me laugh for all the wrong reasons, its the latest Better Together cinema ad, please tell me the Yes campaign aren't planning anything so banal and nauseating! Have you seen the ad, its called:

 

We want the best of both worlds:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5626-PF_GM

 

I was waiting for the doves to appear but unfortunately they suffered the misfortune of hitting some power lines above Better Together HQ.

 

Don't think I've spared the Yes campaign, if I see some dreadful adverts I'll be right on them!

 

I know I'm probably immune to BT now but that ad does nothing for me. I think your description of "banal and nauseating" is being kind. Maybe it's aimed at a younger audience but having everyone in it barely out of their teens (if they even are) does not help to persuade me of the argument, as having two teens myself I know how little the average teen really understands about the world/politics.

 

First Yes advert is better. It has a range of people of different ages and actually covers some of the policies/aspirations post Independence. I like the style and feel of the second one but I'm not sure if it goes a little over the top on the emotional side. Personally I like it but I'm not sure everyone will.

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I know I'm probably immune to BT now but that ad does nothing for me. I think your description of "banal and nauseating" is being kind. Maybe it's aimed at a younger audience but having everyone in it barely out of their teens (if they even are) does not help to persuade me of the argument, as having two teens myself I know how little the average teen really understands about the world/politics.

 

First Yes advert is better. It has a range of people of different ages and actually covers some of the policies/aspirations post Independence. I like the style and feel of the second one but I'm not sure if it goes a little over the top on the emotional side. Personally I like it but I'm not sure everyone will.

As a neutral in terms of your debate I think the second ad was very imaginative,  it addressed both younger people and the aspirations of parents. I don't think it was overly emotional , perhaps I was still reeling from the shock of the Better Together ad which numbed my emotional neuro transmitters! lol

 

I would say the Alex Salmond voice over was good, its funny as you know from reading this thread I'm not his biggest fan but he has a good voice. Its funny you know when people listen to debates on the radio you often get  a difference of opinion between who wins versus television.

 

I think the Yes should keep stressing the what type of society people want to live in message, I think thats a strong powerful message. Its something I think Labour need to do in terms of the GE, its important because even though you can see these improving economic indicators, this covers up a lot of problems, GDP is one thing, quality of life another.

 

I also think the Yes need to do some more targetted ads towards the groups that are currently proving difficult to move, women and over 55's, more especially pensioners.

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I think Yes should address some issues in their ads targetted towards women,  essentially women want more information, they also want to know that whats on offer is realistic.

 

The risk taking study which was recently highlighted just further cements previous studies in terms of gender and differences in risk taking behaviour.

 

I think Yes should accept there will be some uncertainty, that things won't be perfect after independence, they mustn't try and a sell a perfect vision because some people don't believe this, women especially are more pragmatic. The debate at the moment has a malecentric theme, even in the ad that I liked the guitar bit with lyrics of brave etc immediately masculinized the ad,this tribal aspect diminished the overall impact of the ad itself. I can just say as a neutral it was almost perfect to that point, it certainly hit the right buttons, I don't have a vote but it certainly made me think and am sure did resonate with many Scots, the ad for me had a feminine theme, children, the fœtus on the scan until the guitar bit which was incongruous with the rest of the ad.

 

Yes need to realize that they have the male vote in many of the age groups, they need to now introduce more femininity into the campaign. I don't mean the patronizing variety. Women don't just worry about childcare etc.

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I'd just add members of this thread how do you react to this " quality of life isn't just about economics, its about how we treat each other, how we care for those less fortunate, its about communities coming together, its about knowing that your government is trying its best for you" when you vote on September 18th think about this.

 

With a Yes vote we're not promising you a perfect future, there will be bumps on the road and of course we might make some mistakes along the way but by voting Yes you'll know that decisions that effect you will be made by your fellow citizens, that your government will always do its best to make your life better, not just economically but in terms of quality of life.

 

For me I think the quality of life message can trump the economic negatives put forward by Better Together. I think this same message is a powerful one in the general election. I think alot of the times this malaise with politics and the current Westminster way is that many people just don't believe that they're government is trying to make things better, that they really don't care, that they have a checklist of things which they tick off, the Win Votes Box.

 

Essentially it comes down to trust, regardless of what GDP says or what sweeteners are put forward I wouldn't vote Tory, my value set doesn't just come down to economics or GDP its more than that, the question for Scotland is really going back to that ad what sort of country do you want to live in, does your government reflect your values and things you care about.

 

Thats a strong message for Yes, build the narrative about that and I think theres a good chance of a win. The economic arguments can be batted away with , we're not promising perfect, and yes we have taken into account there will be some problems and have fall back positions and alternatives for that.

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Pro-union ‘Better Together’ march planned for 13th September in Edinburgh.

Being organised by the Grand Orange Lodge.

 

http://www.bandparades.co.uk/event/british-together-and-rally-parade

Yes, that’s these people:

 

Posted Image

 

 

Posted Image

 

The ones that hate catholics / the irish and spend their Saturday’s doing stuff like this:

 

Posted Image

 

The most ‘British’ people living in Scotland (and N. Ireland). Traditionally Tory and increasingly UKIP voters. DUP etc in Northern Ireland. Associated with British terrorist groups such as the UDF/UDA and UFF.

 

Couple of them turned up at the 2012 indy march with a union flag. Were shouting, swearing, sticking fingers up at old ladies and young children. Police arrested them.

 

If it goes ahead, should help give Yes a last minute boost.

 

If there’s one thing that will give me great satisfaction about a Yes it’s putting a final end to the remnants of British anti-Irish / catholic sectarianism that still exists amongst a minority in the West of Scotland. The waving of union flags vs Irish tricolours would look rather silly in an independent Scotland. That’s why it doesn’t happen in the Republic of Ireland.

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