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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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My position is that we are better together. Scotland will say NO.

I know what your position is billy. Thats not why i am laughing.

 

You come on the scottish politics thread preaching to us "jockos" of what your saint maggie would and wouldnt allow us as though we are supposed to revere that woman .

 

You clearly arent to up to scratch on what is going on in the wilderness in the north. Nor , after raising various issues  on the independance debate , have you engaged further with anyone who has taken the time to answer you.

 

Looking at the various other political threads on this forum , you dont seem to be doing too good convincing your fellow countrymen either.

 

All i can hear you saying is independance is good for us , but not for you. Consistency of argument is the building block of any political debate , otherwise you become ridiculed. 

Best wishes old bean , but you are convincing no one.

Edited by balmaha
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And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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Balmaha - I'm a southern English patriot, I accept I have nothing in common with SNP supporters. We will leave it at that.

Good for you billy!  An English patriot! I fully respect honesty , rather than those hiding behind the name "britain" so that london can dominate these islands.

 

Sort out your own nation , and the destiny you choose rather than preaching to us what we can and cannot do. 

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Here's the difference.I don't go into the no sites or Daily Fail just to get angry drop a bomb and run.I have nothing to debate with these guys as they are not interested in grown up debate.Too many people like Billy Boy who are short on debating skills and have cotton wool between their ears.Pointless going into these no sites as they serve no purpose for me or for genuine debate.The independence debate is not about who can trash each others nation the most.Billy Bragg thinks England will find itself after Scottish independence.Have a read at some of his stuff Billy you might learn something about England...the real England!By the way you are welcome to come to Scotland and see what's going on up hear.Word of warning don't call yourself Billy Britain in certain parts of Scotland.Namely Parkhead,Coatbridge,Croy,Royston....lol!

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There should be no independence vote at all, there should have been no devolution. We want a United Kingdom.

You do realise that the United Kingdom was never at any point a single nation unitary state? Prior to the 1999 Scottish Parliament elections, the Scottish Office covered the vast majority of government functions - there has always been Scottish Ministers, just prior to 1999 they were lead by the Secretary of State for Scotland in the Westminster Government.*The majority of HM Government (and correctly HM Government and not UK Government) departments of state are English only. Scotland has always retained it's independent legal system, education system etc. There isn't and never has been a UK NHS, NHS Scotland was built independently on the existing foundations of the Highlands & Islands Medical Service which already covered more than half of Scotland and may well have been the seed for the concept of the NHS.* Even under the previous Tory government the A74 in Scotland was upgraded to a 6lane Motorway to Guards Mile at the border - it took the Department of Transport another 20years to plug the resulting 'Cumberland Gap' that regularly caused traffic chaos and is why now the M6 becomes the A74(M) at the border.
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MSM at it again trying to link Salmond with Putin now! Is there anyone he has not been compared to. Yet Farage and Cameron are both anti european and anti immigration. The SNP are polar opposites but MSN would have you believe Salmond is a dictator. Scottish MSM are shocking!

Edited by November13
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Here's the difference.I don't go into the no sites or Daily Fail just to get angry drop a bomb and run.I have nothing to debate with these guys as they are not interested in grown up debate.Too many people like Billy Boy who are short on debating skills and have cotton wool between their ears.Pointless going into these no sites as they serve no purpose for me or for genuine debate.The independence debate is not about who can trash each others nation the most.Billy Bragg thinks England will find itself after Scottish independence.Have a read at some of his stuff Billy you might learn something about England...the real England!By the way you are welcome to come to Scotland and see what's going on up hear.Word of warning don't call yourself Billy Britain in certain parts of Scotland.Namely Parkhead,Coatbridge,Croy,Royston....lol!

 

With respect November, the policies of Billy Bragg were unequivocally rejected at the ballet box in the 1980s.

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You do realise that the United Kingdom was never at any point a single nation unitary state? Prior to the 1999 Scottish Parliament elections, the Scottish Office covered the vast majority of government functions - there has always been Scottish Ministers, just prior to 1999 they were lead by the Secretary of State for Scotland in the Westminster Government.*The majority of HM Government (and correctly HM Government and not UK Government) departments of state are English only. Scotland has always retained it's independent legal system, education system etc. There isn't and never has been a UK NHS, NHS Scotland was built independently on the existing foundations of the Highlands & Islands Medical Service which already covered more than half of Scotland and may well have been the seed for the concept of the NHS.* Even under the previous Tory government the A74 in Scotland was upgraded to a 6lane Motorway to Guards Mile at the border - it took the Department of Transport another 20years to plug the resulting 'Cumberland Gap' that regularly caused traffic chaos and is why now the M6 becomes the A74(M) at the border.

 

Further to this although I think the end of the sentence open to debate as the concept had many arms stretching back into the 19th century.

 

 

As a result of the National Health Service (NHS) (Scotland) Act 1947, the NHS came into being on 5 July 1948. It aimed to meet all health needs free of direct charge to the citizen.

 

In the years immediately prior to its creation, Scotland had pioneered new forms of organised health care, such as the Highlands and Islands Medical Service (HIMS) (1913), and the Clyde Basin Experiment in Preventative Medicine (1941) which anticipated some of its provisions. Such factors combined with other features of Scottish society to create a national health service which was in many ways as distinctive as the Scottish medical culture which preceded it.

 

Prior to the NHS, Scottish health care combined elements of voluntary, municipal, provident, private and government provision at both the hospital and community levels. Afterwards, over four hundred hospitals, with accommodation for around sixty-thousand patients, became Crown property and were formally vested in the Secretary of State for Scotland (SSS) operating through the Department of Health for Scotland (DHS). Five Regional Hospital Boards (RHB) were created to administer Scottish hospitals on a regional basis. This was accomplished through eighty-five local Hospital Boards of Management (HBM). RHBs co-ordinated various aspects of hospital services, including specialists and diagnostic laboratory facilities as well as medical research. They played a similar role in relation to ambulance services for hospitalised patients and also blood transfusion, but both services continued to be run on a voluntary basis. Hospitals in the Lothian area were administered by the South Eastern Regional Hospitals Board.

 

The DHS also assumed overall responsibility for twenty-five Local Health Authorities (LHA) which co-ordinated a variety of community based services, including maternity and child welfare, midwifery, immunisation, vaccination and other aspects of preventative medicine, health visiting, home nursing and mental deficiency. General practitioners (GP), dentists, chemists and opticians remained self-employed. However, the DHS set up Executive Councils (EC) to arrange payment for services for NHS patients. In addition, a Scottish Medical Practices Committee (SMPC) was set up to help co-ordinate the distribution of GPs nationally. Locally, doctors' views were also represented via Medical Committees (MC). The DHS placed great emphasis upon the future co-ordination of doctors' activities through Health Centres (HC) which would be concerned with health education as well as direct patient care.

 

 

 

 

http://www.lhsa.lib.ed.ac.uk/exhibits/history_nhs_1.htm

Edited by knocker
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With respect November, the policies of Billy Bragg were unequivocally rejected at the ballet box in the 1980s.

 

If you refer to more moderate centrist to left policy, then in England, Yes.

 

This is however discussion of Scottish politics; those of a different country. The best the conservatives ever did in the period in question in Scotland was 31.4% (1979). By 1997, their vote had almost halved to just 17.5%, from which they've never recovered.

 

Thatcher and Major's failed economic policies were the big factor here, and of course the social implications of these.

 

Mass unemployment resulting in economic emigration on a huge scale; the equivalent of the entire population of Dundee had to leave Scotland over this period. 

 

No wonder the Tory vote collapsed. People vote for economic competence - something which the Tories showed no sign of having.

 

Scots are also fiscally conservative; again the Tories failed here - hundreds of billions in oil revenues which could have been invested in economic re-alignment, infrastructure etc, instead frittered away with not a penny left to show for it.

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Billy Bragg wasn't a success in England as you have chosen a right wing path under Blair and Cameron. However is it the right path? Are you a happy contented nation? Judging by the contributions on here I would say England is currently very anxious and uneasy with the society you have created.Maybe Bragg was right?

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Billy Bragg wasn't a success in England as you have chosen a right wing path under Blair and Cameron. However is it the right path? Are you a happy contented nation? Judging by the contributions on here I would say England is currently very anxious and uneasy with the society you have created.Maybe Bragg was right?

 

When you say England is very anxious and uneasy with the society you have created do you mean the English people or does that include the 800,000 Scots living there as well? I'm a tad uneasy that there appears to be an increasing emphasis on them and us of late.

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When you say England is very anxious and uneasy with the society you have created do you mean the English people or does that include the 800,000 Scots living there as well? I'm a tad uneasy that there appears to be an increasing emphasis on them and us of late.

 

England 1.5% Scottish eh..

 

Well, nearly 10% of Scotland's population was born in England so on a per capita basis, Scotland's much more, ahem, 'British' in terms of people coming from across the UK to live there.  :winky:

 

Last poll (ICM) had 28% of people from England living in Scotland planning to vote Yes in September, with a further 14% giving it consideration. Make of that what you will.

 

-----------

 

As I've said in recent posts, it would be better if the thread focusses on current events in the campaign / polls etc.

 

Most people that post have set up their stalls and will not be able to persuade anyone from the other camp to change their mind. Ergo, you can just end up with pointless arguments. This little corner of NW will not change the outcome!

 

Same goes for left vs right economics etc. That's for a different thread.

Edited by scottish skier
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Billy Bragg wasn't a success in England as you have chosen a right wing path under Blair and Cameron. However is it the right path? Are you a happy contented nation? Judging by the contributions on here I would say England is currently very anxious and uneasy with the society you have created.Maybe Bragg was right?

I cannot speak for the rest but I am currently a very happy and contented Englishmen :-) Edited by No Balls Like Snow Balls
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This being tweeted.

 

I know there was a meeting today of BBC Scotland staff.

 

BBC is of course currently remains an official backer of the pro-union campaign through it's membership of the CBI. 

 

-----

 

 Retweeted by Wings Over Scotland

Members of the NUJ union at BBC Scotland have called on the BBC to immediately resign from the CBI to protect their #indyref impartiality.

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BBC under increasing pressure due to its funding of the pro-union campaign through the CBI.

 

http://archive.today/IQJKf

 

Scottish independence: BBC 'considering' resigning CBI membership
 
Journalists said the BBC's continued membership of the CBI was damaging to impartiality
 
The BBC is considering a call from the National Union of Journalists to resign immediately from the Confederation of British Industry (CBI).
 
The business group had registered as an official backer for a "No" vote in the forthcoming referendum, but it is now trying to reverse that decision.
 
The BBC had already suspended its membership during the campaign period.
 
It is now saying it is looking at resigning as a member which costs £22,191.94 per year.

 

 
 
That's Scottish license payer's money going to fund a formally registered No campaign group.
 
Not only that, but of course the BBC have had the CBI on many times over the years portrayed as ostensibly impartial business experts, failing to inform the audience that the BBC was part of the CBI. How can an organisation funded by the BBC be presented as 'independent / impartial'. How do we know they don't say what the BBC asked given that the BBC was paying money to them?
Edited by scottish skier
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It's not been a good day for Alex Salmond, he's hardly doing much to make friends with EU countries that need to rubberstamp Scotlands continued EU membership if it becomes independent.

 

His assertion on the living wage was rebuffed by the EU and now he's issuing threats re some EU countries ability to get to Norwegian waters to fish if Scotland isn't fast tracked into the EU.

 

Regardless of the legality of what he said this dictatorial tone and throwing toys out of the pram attitude lacks diplomacy and is really not going to go down well in the EU. And where has Nicola Sturgeon gone, is there something amiss behind the scenes with her and Salmond?

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It's not been a good day for Alex Salmond, he's hardly doing much to make friends with EU countries that need to rubberstamp Scotlands continued EU membership if it becomes independent.

 

His assertion on the living wage was rebuffed by the EU and now he's issuing threats re some EU countries ability to get to Norwegian waters to fish if Scotland isn't fast tracked into the EU.

 

Regardless of the legality of what he said this dictatorial tone and throwing toys out of the pram attitude lacks diplomacy and is really not going to go down well in the EU. And where has Nicola Sturgeon gone, is there something amiss behind the scenes with her and Salmond?

 

Erm, his speech in Bruges was really well received by EU members. My mother in law in Le Harve heard it on the news and was very impressed.

 

No threats were made at all.

 

Have you actually read it / heard it?

 

In Scotland 'A really bad day for Salmond' in the British MSM normally means he's had a great one.

 

Basically, we've entered EU election time and with the SNP likely to take 50% of Scottish MEPs, gaining one from the Libs, we are into full attack mode from the British establishment.

 

What this normally does is boost the SNP share of the vote. See 2007 and 2011 elections for reference.

 

 

----------

 

You can read the speech here if you want to.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-bruges/

 

Here's the, ahem, 'threat':

 

We propose a practical, common sense approach to membership, which means that there is no detriment – none whatsoever – to any other member of the European Union as a result of Scotland’s continuing membership.

 

And the alternative – the fishing fleets of 12 countries being denied any access to Scottish waters and as a consequence, their access to Norwegian waters, which is also dependent on Scottish access; 160,000 EU workers and students, and of course voters, in Scotland suddenly uncertain about their status; five and a quarter million people ceasing to be EU citizens against their will – this alternative, as Sir David Edward points out, is clearly absurd.

 

 

He's correct about Norway. They are not in the EU. If Scotland was 'thrown out' of the EU then the bilateral agreement with Norway which allows EU members to fish Norwegian waters in return for Norwegians fishing in Scottish waters would be jeopardised. Likewise, if Scottish fishermen are banned from EU waters, then EU fleets couldn't be expected to be allowed to fish in Scottish waters.

 

This isn't a threat, it's just an absurd situation if it were allowed to develop.

 

Nick, you need to stop thinking the UK government and media are generally good, democratic and trustworthy. They do not practice what they preach. The electorate in Scotland are becoming acutely aware of that; hence the ongoing swing to Yes in polls.

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Erm, his speech in Bruges was really well received by EU members. My mother in law in Le Harve heard it on the news and was very impressed.

 

No threats were made at all.

 

Have you actually read it / heard it?

 

In Scotland 'A really bad day for Salmond' in the British MSM normally means he's had a great one.

 

Basically, we've entered EU election time and with the SNP likely to take 50% of Scottish MEPs, gaining one from the Libs, we are into full attack mode.

 

What this normally does is boost the SNP share of the vote. See 2007 and 2011 elections for reference.

 

 

----------

 

You can read the speech here if you want to.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-bruges/

I've read the speech, some parts were fine sadly Salmond couldn't resist having  a go regarding fishing rights. He also was caught out re the living wage and just tried to blame the EU. Indeed that's all he seems to do just blame everyone, its always someone elses fault! He also made yet another spurious assertion re EU membership. He seems to live in this world where everything he says will happen, forgetting that a lot of things need to be negotiated with other nations.

 

I accept you're a Yes supporter but is Salmond beyond any criticism, I've made my views clear re his royal highness, he's divisive and keeps playing this victim card, and all this he wants to be friends with the rUK after independence has me reaching for a bucket. Scots might like him and they're the ones voting not me so as long as he gets them to vote Yes that's all that essentially matters.

 

However a vote Yes is just the start, with all the negotiations needed afterwards he at least needs to play the diplomacy card beforehand and keep some goodwill. I've said before in here I don't have anything against the Yes campaign in general but I just do not care for Salmond, I don't like him and think someone with a bit more diplomacy and warmth would have better served the Yes campaign.

 

SS its a clear threat and illegal under maritime law, Yes EU boats cant fish in those waters but Scotland cannot stop them crossing to reach Norwegian waters. Salmonds assertion is that they wouldn't even be allowed to access Scottish waters. How exactly does he intend to do this, by force? I admire you trying to put up a defence for Mr Salmond but this threat is as he would say if he was talking about Westminster is just bluff and bluster!

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'His royal highness'

 

I suppose that's better than Mugabe or Hitler.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-dictator-comparison-bingo/

 

Nobody's perfect, but I'd rather have Alex Salmond representing Scotland than Cameron, Miliband or Farage. 

 

In terms of the EU, I'd hesitate to talk about moaning / blaming others - Britain is the biggest moaner of all the EU countries. All it does is blame the EU for everything...

 

It thinks it can just re-write all the rules of the EU and all the other countries will just agree surely? That's the sort of thing Dave is saying is it not?

 

Coming back to Salmond - what on earth does Salmond have to do with Scotland becoming independent?

 

I'm really lost here.

 

I understand some don't like him - I certainly don't think he walks on water - but I can't see this link between him and reasons for Scots to vote Yes or No.

 

He's just a politician and may be FM only until 2016 for all we know. The blink of an eye in the history of Scotland.

 

It seems everyone outside Scotland thinks it's all to do with him. Why? What is this obsession people have with one man. How can it utterly blind people to what's happening in Scotland. 

 

He's only been FM since 2007 and has never been in any position of power before. He was not responsible for the Yes votes for devolution / a Scottish parliament in 1979 nor 1997. He just happens to find himself as FM as Scotland finally, after moving towards it for 70 years, considers it's position in the UK. The referendum is nothing to do with him and anyone who thinks that is woefully misinformed.

Edited by scottish skier
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'His royal highness'

 

I suppose that's better than Mugabe or Hitler.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-dictator-comparison-bingo/

 

Nobody's perfect, but I'd rather have Alex Salmond representing Scotland than Cameron, Miliband or Farage. 

 

In terms of the EU, I'd hesitate to talk about moaning / blaming others - Britain is the biggest moaner of all the EU countries. All it does is blame the EU for everything...

 

It thinks it can just re-write all the rules of the EU and all the other countries will just agree surely? That's the sort of thing Dave is saying is it not?

 

Coming back to Salmond - what on earth does Salmond have to do with Scotland becoming independent?

 

I'm really lost here.

 

I understand some don't like him - I certainly don't think he walks on water - but I can't see this link between him and reasons for Scots to vote Yes or No.

 

He's just a politician and may be FM only until 2016 for all we know.

 

It seems everyone outside Scotland thinks it's all to do with him. Why? What is this obsession people have with one man. How can it utterly blind people to what's happening in Scotland. 

 

He's only been FM since 2007 and has never been in any position of power before. He was not responsible for the Yes votes for devolution / a Scottish parliament in 1979 nor 1997. He just happens to find himself as FM as Scotland finally, after moving towards it for 70 years, considers it's position in the UK. The referendum is nothing to do with him and anyone who thinks that is woefully misinformed.

 

SS you can't separate out Salmond from the debate, essentially that's like separating out a leader in a general election. If Salmond gets caught out with his assertions put forward as facts that's going to impact some voters.

 

In terms of the EU no point me getting into a debate over that because we're on the same page, the UK is always moaning and trying to scapegoat it ,you know that I'm very pro Europe.

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I've got no idea why Salmond decided to make threats barring access to fishing grounds in that otherwise positive speech. 'Do what we ask or we'll make life difficult'?

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