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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    Something interesting about Scotlands social class. The amount of lower and long term unemployed who are most likely to vote yes have grown since the 1950's. They have been badly let down in the Union and want something better. Whereas the I'm alright jack middle classes who perceive they have more to lose financially will vote no at present. So in essence we have a Scottish elite who don't really care about their compatriots who are struggling to survive. That's a bit saddening to me as they are not being socially aware or showing a caring attitude. I have said this before that being a country is never about money. I know the hearts and minds argument but I fear we are losing the reason for nationhood in the constant narrowness of the debate around filthy wonga. This is a vote to be a nation not to increase our bank balances.It is like 1707 all over again where peoples votes are determined by the pounds offered to their pockets. I don't think the Catalonians who take to the streets in their millions do it for monetory reasons.I think they really believe in their nation. I want more of this from the yes side as I think it could be important. After all no one can honestly predict how much money anyone will have. This is about democracy and nationhood.

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Very good article on Wings today.

     

    The perspective of an Englishman now living in Scotland and why he's voting for independence.

     

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-common-enemy/

     

     

    We’re a tiny independent charity based in a small, sleepy town and yet it’s always been possible to reach those in power. Over the years we’ve been invited to give the view from the frontline to Parliamentary Committees four times. Many politicians have also come down to see us to get a pavement level view of what’s going down.

     
    In our time we’ve played host to the First Minister, two party leaders, the Education Minister and the Parliament’s Presiding Officer. This would never happen in a million years in England. It’s the beauty of living in a country of five million. Things are more connected, easier to run properly, and it’s more possible to make your voice heard.
     
    So a life-long contempt for the leafy suburbs of Surrey and all those insufferable Etonians in the shining towers of the City and the bloated billionaires of Belgravia is one big reason for sticking up two fingers in a southerly direction and putting my cross in the Yes box...
     
    ...For all of us who live up here, the future looks pretty damn good. I only hope that the price won’t have to be paid by the North of England. When can we move the border?
    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    Yes SS great article but the BBC last night would rather pick out a vox pop of an English woman in Wick last night saying:"I have lived here 30 years will I need a passport now". Apart from the fact they probably interviewed 20 people and picked this one. It is just another unionist myth which I thought we had explained at least 50 times. However just one more time for the hard of thinking you will not need a passport to go to England and if you are English you can have a dual British and Scottish passport if you wanted. The example is Eire. In any case no bariers in Europe means no barriers in Scotland. Could be a barrier if the English decide to leave Europe but that would be their doing not ours.

    Edited by November13
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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    Had an interesting chat with one of my running buddies at the club. We were running past Grangemouth and the chat turned to oil as it does. I said there was at least anothr 40 years of oil and new fields being discoverd all the time and the West was untapped. He said where? I explained with facts about new drilling techniques etc, and that the government having been claiming the oil was runing out for the last 40 years! As it suited their scaremongering tactics. He looked blankly at me and said I think we are still beter together. However he then said I just don't know who is telling the truth. I thought these are the people even on the no side that with a little knowledge we could change their minds. He obviously has just believed the government and the unionist myths without doing his own research. We are up against a media machine of propaganda in Scotland. The question is how do we get the truth out there when the machine is pro union.If everyone like ourselves did our own research it would open their eyes.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

     

    = dog biscuits

     

    The SNP are promoting devolution within Scotland (being a liberal federalist party) and are working with the isles (in the first instance, who are the most remote so arguably have differing needs) on this.

     

    http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/07/25/snp-keen-on-greater-isles-autonomy-says-salmond-in-lerwick-declaration

     

    SNP keen on greater isles autonomy, says First Minister in ‘Lerwick Declaration’

     

     

    Poll of the shetland islanders has them firmly Scottish as they have been since well before the union.

     

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/7203-northern-isles-are-scottish-say-islanders

    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3201771

     

     

     

     

    Also, note that in theory an island could vote to remain part of the UK. That would need agreements with the UK and Scottish goverments. Would give them enclave status (if Scotland was independent) and 12 miles of foreshore only (think channel islands).

     

    http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf

     

    I suppose the independent people's republic of Lewis is possible, pending a Lewis national party, majority vote, referendum, then UN recognition

     

    See page 105 for e.g. Shetland as a UK enclave under international law. Image:

     

    Posted Image

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
    It must be a slow news day because I can't see that happening under any circumstances. I'm not a constitutional expert but I don't see how the Islands could choose to remain in the UK whilst Scotland becomes independent. Is there even a legal framework for this?

    Looking at that map you posted SS am I right in thinking that the Islands wouldn't have the main oil/gas fields so that would be pointless as how would they survive?

    Edited by nick sussex
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    It must be a slow news day because I can't see that happening under any circumstances. I'm not a constitutional expert but I don't see how the Islands could choose to remain in the UK whilst Scotland becomes independent. Is there even a legal framework for this?

    Looking at that map you posted SS am I right in thinking that the Islands wouldn't have the main oil/gas fields so that would be pointless as how would they survive?

     

    Yes, remaining in the UK as enclave status would make them like the channel islands; only 12 miles of foreshore so no oil and gas of any significance.

     

    The myth that Shetland and Orkney want to remain in the UK (or run off and form an independent republic) is a British propoganda myth dating back to the 1979 devolution referendum where support there was narrowly against.

     

    Both supported devolution with comfortable majorities in 1997 and Shetland islands council supports devolution of Oil and Gas to Holyrood.

     

    Back in the 70's/80's, there was a Sheltand autonomy (from London) movement. The SNP had a policy of not standing against its candidates / actively supporting them.

     

    As noted, the SNP are a yellow, liberal party and support localised democracy within Scotland. Hence them working with the isles to promote more devolution to account for the isles differing needs.

     

    The SNP have recently begun work on a 'Rural' parliament to discuss and further the interests of Scotland's rural / remote areas which are also different to the central belt.

     

    http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Scotland-s-Rural-Parliament-377.aspx

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level
  • Location: Maddiston , Falkirk, Scotland 390ft above sea level

    The islands can no more choose to stay in the UK than Fife or Inverness after the referendum. At the moment of independence they are part of Scotland they are not nations within the UK nor nations within Scotland. This is a referendum for the whole of Scotland. This is simply spurious and frankly ignorant stupidity. Of course a future independent Scotland might look to grant the islands an assembly but it cannot be a parliament as they were never independent nations in the modern sense. In fact orkney was actually re-annexed from Norway in the 1400's. It is not a nation it is a region of Scotland separated by water. The other islands were not always part of Scotland. Islands such as Lewis were invaded by Norway and ruled as vassals of Norway not independent nations. Again reclaimed by Scotland. I think this is really silly season we are in.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Latest episode of 'The Fear Factor' out.

     

    Part one:

     

    This is the Fear Factor

     

     

     

    Newly released part 2:

     

    Part of the Union

     

     

    Part 3:

    The Fear Factor: 'The Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth

     

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)
  • Weather Preferences: cold and snowy in winter, a good mix of weather the rest of the time
  • Location: Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire (this lockdown) Freuchie, Fife (normally)

    Is anyone from the forum heading to the March and Rally tomorrow? I was going to be piping at it but I seem to have come down with a belated case of Freshers Flu along with a pretty nasty cough so I'll probably just be marching with the National Collective/SNP Students group.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    In the 70s and early 80s, unlike Scotland, Shetland did have a unitary single political body to speak for itself - the result is that the Shetland Island's Council has an oil fund, and has over the last 3 decades seen significant oil funded infrastructure investment. It stands in stark contrast to Scotland's situation regards the oil revenues and the UK's simple squandering of a one off natural resource.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Is anyone from the forum heading to the March and Rally tomorrow? I was going to be piping at it but I seem to have come down with a belated case of Freshers Flu along with a pretty nasty cough so I'll probably just be marching with the National Collective/SNP Students group.

     

    Going with Mrs SS and mini Miss SS.

     

    Tagging along with the WoS posse.

     

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/plan-b/

     

    Look out for an auld alliance Tricolour-Saltire combo couple + wee yin, tricolour really wee, saltire tall, mini Miss catching up on Mrs SS.

     

    EDIT. Map of the set-up.

     

    Posted Image

    Going to be impressive if George IV to north Bridge can be filled, especially with the square around St Giles.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    I have been browsing through Facebook and have noticed a difference between the Better Together page and the Yes Scotland page. On BT you can't reply to individual comments below BT posts, but on Yes Scotland you can. I'm sure this has simply been an oversight by BT when they set up the page, and it would reflect the common assumption that in very general terms BT supporters tend to be older and not tech-savvy while Yes Scotland supporters are younger and tech-savvy. If some of the most recent opinion polls are to be believed and the No voters outnumber the Yes voters by a margin of two to one, then Yes Scotland supporters must be more tech-savvy and open to internet use by a margin of more than two to one, as the Yes Scotland page has several thousand more likes than the BT page.

     

    Anyway, I have contacted BT directly through their website to ask why there is a difference with reply options, I'll let you know if they come back with anything. This is the message I sent:

     

     

    I have noticed on Facebook that your page does not allow replies to individual messages below Better Together posts. The Yes Scotland Facebook page does allow replies to individual messages. This allows for better debate amongst the Facebook community. Was this a deliberate ploy by Better Together to prevent proper debate, or simply an oversight? I plan to vote Yes next year, one of the reasons for this is the lack of proper debate coming from the No camp.

     

    I also filled in all my contact details so that they can waste time and money contacting me. Every penny wasted on me is a penny less to spend on someone who is wavering. Underhand? Yes! Do I care? Nope.

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    Posted
  • Location: Paris suburbs
  • Location: Paris suburbs

    Oh I just checked those pages to see what my friends/acquaintances think:

     

    Better Together - 21 friends like this (two live in England)

    Yes Scotland - 4 friends like this (two live in N. Ireland)

     

    Slightly unbalanced!

    Edited by Harve
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Yes is 72% online; at least among those discussing it. Was discussed a while back.

     

    http://forum.netweather.tv/topic/69584-scottish-politics-2011-2016/page-204#entry2736269

     

    Posted Image

     

    Those for no were found to be mainly so for 'irrational' reasons.

     

    ----------

     

    Back from March / Rally (left after the first half an hour of the post march rally as 6 yr old Miss SS was getting too tired).

     

    Was absolutely mobbed. We got to the top of calton hill and the line still stretched back to the bridges.

     

    Herald suggesting 20,000 or more (EDIT organisers now saying 20,000 apparently).

     

    So at least double last year.

     

    Was great fun. Wee one had a whale of a time.

     

    Pics starting to appear in the press. There was a press Helicopter, so some aerial footage should appear.

     

    Posted Image

     

     

    What was amazing was the diversity. All sections of society, all 'creeds and colours', all ages, from wee kids to WW veterans. Flags from across the globe...

     

    Of course dominated politics of the moderate centre to left and liberal. SNP, socialists, Greens, CND, LGBT rights etc

     

    The goal was to 'fill the hill' and I think that was achieved.

     

    ---------

     

    Some people 'like' better together? Have they read it? Nobody could like it unless they hated Scotland and any form of home rule. It's the most awful site going.

     

    I could understand someone liking/wanting the union for their own reasons, but better together's sites are really unpleasant. Some of the people on facebook are awful; if I was undecided it would be a huge turnoff, particularly the stuff from some of the regulars. 

     

    The reason they are anywhere near YesScotland (which has 52%) is BT advertise online, including regular facebook ads, google ads etc. They often have the ads pretending to be more neutral too, saying 'find out more about the referendum'. In contrast Yes don't advertise; all their 'likes' have come naturally, or, somewhat ironically, as a result of Better Together ads (I've noted every time BT put out an ad, their likes rate spikes but then so does Yes Scotland's, suggesting people look at BT then go hunting for yes and pick which one they prefer).

     

    The pro-union campaign have Huge levels of censorship too. People have been looking at this. Results from a study last year.

     

    Posted Image

     

    There's a facebook site now for those censored by the pro-union campaign simply for asking questions, linking to articles which contradict the lies they come out with etc.

     

    https://www.facebook.com/SilencedbyBetterTogether

     

    They may have a problem too with cash.

     

    Posted Image

     

    Been Tory money from London funding them to date.

     

    Obviously, the Scottish Government aren't spending taxes on campaigning.

     

    -------

     

    EDIT. Here's a BT add at the bottom of google today when I was searching for rally news. I always click them when I see them. Every penny helps! Posted Image

     

    Must be costing them a fortune. Add that to the 100 k salaries they're paying themselves and no wonder they're begging for dosh!

     

     

    post-9421-0-87556200-1379779335_thumb.pn

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    We should have some better footage soon, but here's someone uploaded a wee phone vid already (front of the march line up at the bridges looking up the high street with the pipes playing before the march began).

     

    Pipe band went off first then the march followed. The crowd was gathered from the Bridges/Cockburn street to George IV bridge, filling the square around St Giles. I heard they had to expand the area down towards the mound to accommodate late arrivals.

     

    Family SS quite near the front with the WoS posse.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VcjLGiFew8

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Oh I just checked those pages to see what my friends/acquaintances think:

     

    Better Together - 21 friends like this (two live in England)

    Yes Scotland - 4 friends like this (two live in N. Ireland)

     

    Slightly unbalanced!

     

    That's quite an interesting way to look at it. My friends are 6 - 4 in favour of Yes Scotland. Out of the 4 who like BT, three are English people who live in Scotland, one is a staunch Scottish unionist who lives in Scotland, loves Scotland but believes very strongly in the UK. Out of the six who like Yes Scotland five are Scottish, one is English and they all live in Scotland.

     

    It could be suggested that your social circle is deeply skewed towards the unionist mindset and is not reflective of society as a whole. If your social circle reflected society as a whole then you shouldn't be more than 5 - 1 in favour of BT, even by the Ashcroft poll you should only have a ratio of 2 - 1 in favour of BT.

     

    My results are too small to have any significance either way :lol:

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    BT have been e.g. going around Schools etc trying to get likes from 16+ kids (following the red herring the SNP gave them).

     

    It explains why most of their likes come from the youngest age group (18-24), with Yes Scotland getting much more from adults like myself (18-34).

     

    EDIT

     

    Today BT like rate is 190 likes/day

     

    YesScotland 620 likes/day

     

    I don't do facebook, but among my wife's friends (all in the 30s to 40's and about half are English as this is the borders), a few have liked Yes with only one liking BT (they as a group don't post politics stuff / discuss it much). The one that likes BT is a staunch unionist protestant from N. Ireland so I'm not entirely sure her voting intention is based on what she think's is best for Scotland...

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Oh, here's one from YesScotland with me in it! About half an hour before the march sets off so starting to fill up.

     

    Posted Image

     

    (to the right of the steward next to the red bin with Mrs SS and Mini Miss SS).

     

    Ha ha, I like the guy with the wee placard saying 'Aye have a dream'.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    BT have been e.g. going around Schools etc trying to get likes from 16+ kids (following the red herring the SNP gave them).

     

    It explains why most of their likes come from the youngest age group (18-24), with Yes Scotland getting much more from adults like myself (18-34).

     

    EDIT

     

    Today BT like rate is 190 likes/day

     

    YesScotland 620 likes/day

     

    I don't do facebook, but among my wife's friends (all in the 30s to 40's and about half are English as this is the borders), a few have liked Yes with only one liking BT (they as a group don't post politics stuff / discuss it much). The one that likes BT is a staunch unionist protestant from N. Ireland so I'm not entirely sure her voting intention is based on what she think's is best for Scotland...

     

    According to the Facebook pages the likes per week are as follows:

     

    Better Together: 4,940

    Yes Scotland: 2,651

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    According to the Facebook pages the likes per week are as follows:

     

    Better Together: 4,940

    Yes Scotland: 2,651

     

    Ad campaign spike. 

     

    I collect all data, even likes/day. Sad, but it's polling data of a sort.

     

    If BT didn't advertise on facebook, google etc, they'd be nowhere. Yes likes are 'natural' with no advertising, No are 'bought' in a sense.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Just to put things into perspective...

     

    Just shy of 1% of the total Scots regularly voting electorate marched in Edinburgh today, and more people than voted UKIP (I pick them out simply as they are a party polling on a par with the lib dems UK-wide) in 2011 across the whole of Scotland.

     

    That's quite impressive for what is essentially equivalent to a political party conference/gathering/rally.

     

    Lets make it 50,000 next year!

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    Lets make it 50,000 next year!

    If it's the same date I hope it's a celebratory one, or is it going to be the weekend before the referendum?
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  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I believe it's before the referendum! Will probably be late summer, e.g. July / August.

     

    Meanwhile, the front page of the Sunday Herald today; the only paper currently showing a decent degree of balance / not being clearly biased to the union.

     

    Posted Image

     

    A short clip of part of the March coming across North Bridge onto the end of Princes Street / Waterloo place.

     

     

    A collection of pics here:

     

    http://myvoice.myvoiceofscotland.net/scottish-independence-march-rally-2013/

     

    Which show the huge diversity of people and political groups that came along in support.

     

    EDIT.

     

    And a short clip from Calton Hill. Shows roughly half the top; I was on the other side of the folly and it looked similar. The geography of the hill means it was impossible to get a view of all of it from the ground.

     

    Edited by scottish skier
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