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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Why do you....and others....refer to anyone who doesnt support Scottish Independence as Unionists?That term can be regarded as inflammatory.As i've stated in here a few months ago many people in the UK dont even recognise the term "unionist" so why the pro -independence activists continue to use the term is strange......or is it just provocative?Maybe it's just relevant to Scotland and it's divided past, esp in Glasgow?As an English person, is there any disgrace in one of your fellow countrymen(women) questioning Scottish Independence?

As a scottish person ,is there any disgrace in one of your fellow countrymen questioning english independance from brussels?

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And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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David Cameron is a unionist, just he supports England / Britain being in a union with Scotland, i.e. the other way around. Presumably it's because he believe it benefits his country (England) financially amongst other things. 

 

The term itself is not per se derogatory, no more so anyway than say calling someone a 'leftie' or a 'Tory' or a 'Greenie'. Simply common terms for those of particular political viewpoints. 

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Basically, at the moment, if you support the union you largely have carte blanche to call independence supporters whatever you like in the papers, on TV etc. Fascists, xenophobes, dictators, racists. MPs, MSPs, journalists whoever you are... no bother, knock yourself out.

 

Don't try anything even mild like that if you are an independence supporter of any prominence. You'll be headline news as something nasty within hours.

 

A reminder.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-dictator-comparison-bingo/

 

Just a very small selection for a particular example too.

 

This does not apply to all unionists of course, far from it. However it does apply to many of prominence, notably within the right-wing Labour Party due to their rabid hatred of the centre-left SNP. Labour may say they dislike the Tories, even though they agree all the time, but boy do they really hate the SNP/independence supporters. Not only have they had their traditional kingdom taken from them; their trough feeding and lordships are on the line.

 

Anyway, can make people angry towards unionists (of prominence in particular).

Edited by scottish skier
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Quite an interesting poll from MORI, shame they don't have the exact methodology. In terms of whether they just called landlines or whether mobiles were called.

Another issue is the screener question in terms of certainty to vote, generally the best surveys don't just ask a simple yes or no as to certainty to vote.

They would generally ask a range of questions,it doesn't say in the survey whether those called were asked an initial screener as eligibility to vote.

The Scottish referendum is really quite interesting in terms of how the undecideds break, in normal say candidate elections the general wisdom is that these break more for the challenger but this type of scenario is quite different.

So to a certain degree theres a lot of unknowns here, these surveys should really be more indepth and try to look at where the undecided are leaning. Hopefully as the vote draws closer there will be more in depth polling.

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Erm. Conservative and Unionist Party?

 

http://m.conservatives.com/News/News_stories/2012/04/Conservative_and_Unionist_Party_Centenary.aspx

 

Posted Image

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00k7t8j

 

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/scottish-independence-unionist-parties-will-beat-snp-with-devo-message-says-tory-1-2748692

Yes, well aware SS.

It's just, in England, we dont really use the term.

Different in Scotland, where it is an issue and secterianism still blights part of your country, esp in parts of Glasgow.

 

ad infinitum...

 

 

 

It means you support the union. Maybe it's not common in England, but it is the political term for supporting Scotland remaining in the UKoGB union and this is a Scottish politics thread.

 

Ulster Unionists (support Ulster in the Union as opposed to joining Ireland) take the Tory whip too.

 

http://www.mydup.com/

 

Many are members of the bigoted anti-catholic orange order.

 

------------

 

And note the left vs right battle which goes on the UK politics thread is no different to unionists vs independence supporters/nationalists in Scotland. Both can get a little heated sometimes.

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BB: It's just, in England, we dont really use the term.
Different in Scotland, where it is an issue and secterianism still blights part of your country, esp in parts of Glasgow.

 

Aye, We have Britain vs Ireland played out in Glasgow (at least that's what largely remains of sectarianism in Scotland),

 

Posted Image

 

but then England has riots and immigration tensions to worry about. Each country has it's own issues which require their own solutions.

 

In Scotland 'unionist' is not directly associated with sectarianism as it is in N Ireland - just to clarify. The Labour party are unionist as are the Tories, traditionally the former was for catholic the latter for protestant. As Scottish sectarianism - promoted by unionist parties to gain support and maintain the union as per N. Ireland - has died, so has the traditional party affiliation. 'Unionist' today in Scotland has no religious attachment for the vast majority in the current debate; it's Lab/Tory/Lib unionist vs SNP/Green/SSP/Independents + emerging Lib/Lab/Tory pro-indy.

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Well Celtic/Rangers thats a can of worms! Both sets of supporters and the clubs are part of the reason Scotland cannot unite.The hardliners are total John Bulls or on the other side care little for Scotland as they are obsessed with Ireland.Before anyone gets wound up I am referring to many of them as of course there will be exceptions.

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Pro-union campaign splintering.

 

Seems those who thought that we're 'Better Together' now think they're better apart.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22495174

 

 

Scottish independence: Labour launches referendum campaign
 
Labour is launching its own campaign to keep Scotland in the UK, distancing itself from Better Together colleagues.
 
Hidden in that MORI poll was the interesting fact that Alastair Darling is rather unpopular with potential No voters. The dirty Tory money probably didn't help.
 
So much for united we stand.

 

Ties in with the fact that BT are struggling for recruits, so much so they keep massively inflating numbers that turn up for their meetings. At the Edinburgh Launch they claimed 600. However a WoS call to the venue confirmed only 300 permitted in the room, with seat numbers confirmed as 180. Photos added maybe 50 standing. http://wingsoverscotland.com/health-and-safety/

 

They're at it again for the Aberdeen Launch, claiming 70, but at best 40 so so there. http://wingsoverscotland.com/full-marks-for-persistence
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It Appears that Better Together parties can not agree on what the terms of Better Together should be and this will just end up confusing people. Just goes to show how entrenched the parties are in their own ideology and potentially how embarrassing the whole set-up could be...SNP must take advantage of this.

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Gordon Broons tactic seems to be be that without Scotland.England would become aTory wasteland.So Scottish voters are in effect being asked to save England from itself.Really is that the best they can come up with.So Scots have to stay in the union with a government they haven't voted for just so that every 10 years England might vote the same way as Scots.No thanks Gordon we don't exist to provide votes for your party.

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The important thing being retaining Sterling is in the short term. Once we get 10 years down the line Scotland could either join the Euro or have our own currency. It's all nonsense anyway this stuff. Just makes some headlines but there is no substance to it.

Why would any supporter of an independent Scotland advocate ever joining the Euro? I thought the whole idea of Scottish independence is to be that..independent? Splitting away from the UK for then to join Euro at a later stage seems a contradiction to me.
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Why would any supporter of an independent Scotland advocate ever joining the Euro? I thought the whole idea of Scottish independence is to be that..independent? Splitting away from the UK for then to join Euro at a later stage seems a contradiction to me.

Leaving aside whether Scotland should or shouldn't join the Euro, the point is that independence gives Scotland that choice, one it quite clearly does not have in the UK. When it's all said and done though, Scotland would need to have it's own currency to be eligible to join the Euro, unless there was treaty change, as it seems very unlikely Sterling will ever go back into the narrow band of the ERM. Edited by skifreak
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Or staying with the UK and leaving Europe altogether when the English decide in a referendum. Leaving Westminster with even more control of Scotland.

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BBC News, 2.53pm today:
 
“Organisers of the ‘United With Labour’ campaign say they’re arguing for a fairer, better Scotland that stands strong within the United Kingdom. They’ll work with the ‘Better Together’ campaign run by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats.â€

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/quoted-for-truth-15/

 

Glad that's cleared up then. I wonder if Alastair Darling and Blair McDougall are aware?

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So who woke Gordon Brown up? What's in it for him?

Rip Van Winkel springs to mind. People forget he wasn't even an elected prime minister...quaking in my boots!
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Or staying with the UK and leaving Europe altogether when the English decide in a referendum. Leaving Westminster with even more control of Scotland.

I've a feeling that the new Independent Scotland will be getting all the immigration it needs, N13...Posted Image  It's amazing what a country, that values its people for themselves and not merely as 'mobile units of monetary gain', can achieve...

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So it looks like the Tories are going to publish an EU in/out referendum bill for a vote in 2017. But surely such a long run in would create uncertainty and damage the economy and the vote should be held within 6 months. Oh wait it's one rule for Scotland and another for Westminster (again)...

It's increasingly looking like the EU and UK General Election situation in 2015-2017 will mean that a NO vote in 2014 will simply not put the constitutional question to rest and effectively be inconclusive as the situation would be so fluid going forward. Better Together have made their scaremongering case largely off the back of uncertainty, but increasingly it looks like voting NO is the uncertain option.

I don't know anyone who buys the 'one more push for Labour' line anymore, so in the event of a NO vote in 2014 I'm starting to think it's probable rather than possible the 2015 UK General Election will see a surge in SNP MP's returned to Westminster, partly as a shot across Westminster's bows to not mess around with the Scottish Parliament. Of course if a majority of Scottish MP's returned in 2015 are Nationalists that's always been accepted as a mandate for independence.

The 2016 Scottish Elections will be fascinating regardless of the 2014 referendum outcome, indeed if the 2015 UK election returns a Tory government with a mandate to go through with the EU referendum, then the SNP Government being returned even after a no vote seems a decent bet. Should the SNP in that circumstances go into the 2016 election with a manifesto that states an EU referendum result that sees Scotland vote for IN and UK as a whole vote for OUT results in a Scottish declaration of independence?

What happens if England votes OUT, but the Celtic nations just fractionally tip the balance across the UK as a whole to IN?

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You make some good points Skifreak. In this instance I'll say the Celtic nations had more sense and weren't brainwashed by much of the anti-EU media.

This same media is portraying leaving the EU as a wonder cure for the UK's problems which is utter nonsense. The problem at the moment is that all you hear about are the negatives so in that sense current polling is not showing a true picture.

In terms of your last point if Cameron wants the UK to remain intact then he can't start moaning if the Celtic nations tip the balance to staying in the EU.

As I've said before the right wing of the Tories and Camerons gutless show as PM by caving in has just complicated the Scottish referendum, in effect Cameron could be overseeing the break up of the UK and at the same time the rest of the UK becomes an isolated nation and even more of a lap dog for the USA if it leaves the EU.

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What is not mentioned by Broon in all of this UK together for social cohesion nonsense. Is that the Westiminster government usually switches from Labour to Tory in equal cycles. So for every 5 years of Labour Scotland has to put up with 5 years of Tory voted for by our Southern neighbours. Despite the fact that Scotland has not voted tory for the last 40 years. So we always get a government at some point that we haven't voted for at some stage and at present. In any case Labour are a right wing party. They voted for a war in Iraq, want to keep Nuclear weapons, de- regulated the bank of England,destroyed the pensions...the list goes on.

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I don't know anyone who buys the 'one more push for Labour' line anymore, 

 

I'd concur. That happened in 2010. It failed, just as it largely always has; if England rejects Labour, what Scotland (and Wales) think is largely irrelevant.

 

The Scots electorate were about to give it one final, very last, 'ok just this one more time' push ahead of the 2011 Scottish elections, having reverted to type (well the ~10% Lab-SNP swing) for 2010 as noted. This showed up as a massive drop in SNP VI from 40%+ in 2009 to just over 30% going into 2010 and to late 2011. Then, ~10% of the electorate (Lab-SNP swing) en masse decided that another Labour push was a pointless exercise and in the space of weeks, all transferred back to the SNP again; the party they actually favoured. Hence the collapse of the Labour vote in such a short space of time. Add in 5% from the libs and along came a landslide. ~15% total swing.

 

This is why he pro-union campaign are scared even though the polls show them apparently ahead in Y/N. Depending which one you believe, a 5-10% swing would take you to independence. And the swing potential is there, as evidenced by 2011 polls which had the Yes ahead by a clear margin. It's just swung back again in panic through 2012.

 

What Labour have foreseen is that they are doing increasingly worse in UK polls, yet them winning in 2015 is probably the only thing that could keep the union together, at least for a little while. This push is a push of desperation and linked to the rise of Farage/UKIP. Labour are not riding high on the failure of the Tories - UKIP are. This does not bode well for the union at all.

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As I've said before the right wing of the Tories and Camerons gutless show as PM by caving in has just complicated the Scottish referendum, in effect Cameron could be overseeing the break up of the UK and at the same time the rest of the UK becomes an isolated nation and even more of a lap dog for the USA if it leaves the EU.

 

Oh no doubt. It's turned it from being Scotland in the UK in the EU vs independence in the EU, to independence in the EU or no further powers in an increasingly isolated UK led by the Tories with influence from or in coalition with UKIP.

 

This is a whole new ballgame now.

 

Scotland is not super pro-EU, but far less eurosceptic than England - all the polls show Scotland would vote to stay while it looks like England would vote to leave.

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Lets just hope the Scots don't get conned again by this one last push stuff. I actually believe that Scotland is and always has been a different country socially and culturally from England. Sure we got dragged along with the Union and the empire for a few years. However we maintained our distinct attitude to life which is not a class and money driven society like the South of England.Lets not be locked in this dying Union any longer let us be Scottish and independent of mind and deed.

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Lets just hope the Scots don't get conned again by this one last push stuff. I actually believe that Scotland is and always has been a different country socially and culturally from England. Sure we got dragged along with the Union and the empire for a few years. However we maintained our distinct attitude to life which is not a class and money driven society like the South of England.Lets not be locked in this dying Union any longer let us be Scottish and independent of mind and deed.

 

Well they weren't in 2011; precisely the opposite happened. They thought about giving another last push, then promptly dumped the idea. Hence the shock of Labour when their 10-15 point lead vanished in a matter of weeks. It was never really there in the first place; just a potential last push of desperation which people then gave up on (10-15% swing voters).

 

I'd wager we've seen another last push in 2012. After the Yes went ahead of the No in 2011, it fell back again. Hopes for Devo Max. A panic at the reality of taking the big leap? Quite likely. Anyhow, polls showing the No slipping down and Yes just edging back since. Whether this accelerates soon is the question.

 

As for Scotland being a different country; that's not something people need to believe, it just is. History made it that way. How much history has influenced the apparently different political views (Scotland more centre/left leaning, England more right) is complex, but that's the way it is.

 

Anyhoo, check out El Gordo. What a load of crap he talks.

 

http://player.stv.tv/programmes/scotland-tonight/2013-05-13-2230/

 

You'll struggle to understand anything he says. Jist of it is, Scotland could, maybe possibly have tax raising powers, but any extra tax raised, would be sent to London to be 'distributed' fairly (ahem), i.e. do well economically with any powers we might, maybe, possibly give you at some indeterminate point far off in the future when maybe we're possibly in a position of power to do so and we'll just have the extra you make.

 

Or in plain speak. Vote No get Nothing.

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