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Sarah Smith has written an article on the debate and vote today...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44123716

and I love her reference to how the constitutional debate "not caught voters' attention"

Why is that Sarah? Is it perhaps because the mainstream media does not report it or that if they do, that it's way down the list of what is being reported on?

I know that Independence supporters who are more clued up on these things, that the vote today has very much caught their attention and they will continue to try and gain support online from floating voters.

I do agree though, that your average hardcore Yoon will not take must notice and would rather concentrate on whether Megan's Dad will make the wedding.

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And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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Fascism always works to try and undermine democracy using the justification that 'Voters don't care about this, so we don't need to consult them on it'.

 

EDIT

If Labour and the Lib Dems vote with the SNP today as expected it's because the union is in real trouble.

If this was some 'nat grievance' the electorate didn't care about, the unionist parties would just abstain.

The refusal of legislative consent on such a major constitutional matter (with big brexit spanner in works implications) helps the SNP and the independence cause, yet Lab and Lib will vote for it.

They have to as the only way they can hope to swing things back their way is to press the Tories into backing down. They are really, really praying that's what will happen, for if it doesn't, devolution is broken and the UK with it. 

Edited by scottish skier
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And so the constitutional crisis officially begins.

Quote

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-scotland/scottish-parliament-refuses-consent-for-britains-eu-withdrawal-bill-idUKKCN1IG2K6

Scottish parliament refuses consent for Britain's EU withdrawal bill

LONDON (Reuters) - The Scottish parliament refused consent for Britain’s flagship Brexit legislation on Tuesday, pushing Britain into constitutionally uncharted territory as London presses ahead with the bill regardless.

The devolved Edinburgh legislature voted by 93 votes to 30 to deny consent for the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, currently going through the national parliament in London, which will cut political, financial and legal ties with the EU.

Although the Scottish parliament has no veto over the bill [UK-wide], the refusal to give consent [for its application to Scotland] sets up an unprecedented constitutional clash between Edinburgh and London, complicating British Prime Minister Theresa May’s plans for Brexit.

 

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11 hours ago, Hairy Celt said:

Or more likely, May will give a bit more ground.

And this is the problem. The issue at stake is the one of consent for Westminster legislating in devolved areas. It is asking that this be maintain/respected for all devolved areas. Perfectly fair and the only way the devolution act / principles can be respected. Hence Lab and the Lib Dems even standing with the SNP (or the other way around technically as the SNP don't want indy - that's the unionists wheeze). Nothing is being asked other than what is already written into law is respected. Enshrining the sewel convention in law was even a promise of Better Together and formed part of the post 2014 new settlement. Convention become official law.

But to do this gives Scotland a full veto over all UK wide trade deals...Scotland full control of its fisheries, agriculture, environment... It would also give Wales and N. Ireland a veto too as if Scotland gets one, well everyone should. It would make the UK a union of equals like the EU where e.g. Malta or regional Belgian parliaments can veto trade deals. One nation one vote; no bullying of little nations by the big ones. The UK is feeling the full force of this in the EU with Ireland right now.

It's the elephant in the room. All the political parties understand it and I think the press that understands Scotland a little bit at least gets it too. You do hear it mentioned in a roundabout way. It's not being talked about because this aspect is explosive; England no longer running the UK alone. The veto would work indirectly on many things. England's brexit world would be 'dictated' by the Jocks, Micks, and taffs. While many moderate and properly British folks in England might like that idea fine, it's not going to go down well with the English nationalist brexiter Tories.

It would also mean Scotland can stop brexit, or at least it can stop it for itself and force England to choose over 2 unions in effect. The only alternative is to accept the Jock veto or try and crush Holyrood / Scotland legally, but that would likely fail in the courts (Westminster sovereignty has no weight in Scots law) so you are down to Rajoy type means to try and keep Scotland in or walking away. Either way we watch the UK fall apart.

...Unless Scotland gets a veto on trade deals. Which is fair, particularly as its one of two founders of the union. But that means maybe single market...Scotland wanting devo max and control of oil...all the things its people would like and Holyrood can seek control of in return for not putting spanners in the works on trade deals...

It's another N. Ireland border issue. Arguably a bigger one as if Scotland goes, there is no UK....no union flag...no British, for it is the UK.

And so we will have our crisis. It may be temporarily averted if May's plan is actually to make such a mess of brexit we stay in. Which I can't help think is still a possibility. 

 

Edited by scottish skier
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Meanwhile, sadly we are not immune to the developing Tory brexit economic downturn.

Thankfully our parliament is standing united (Tories aside) to try its best to protect us from the worst of what is coming.

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-44128288

Scottish retailers see sales fall by 3.4% in April

Retailers struggled on Scotland's high streets in April as non-food sales slid to their worst monthly performance in six years.

The SRC-KPMG retail sales monitor found total sales fell year-on-year by 3.4%.

Non-food sales declined by 5.5% - the worst performance since April 2012 - while food sales were down by 0.8%...

...Ewan MacDonald-Russell, from the Scottish Retail Consortium, said retailers would be "feeling decidedly queasy" over the latest sales monitor figures.

He said: "Granted April was distorted but it was the toughest month since April 2013 for the industry with a real-terms fall of 2.4%, with shoppers cutting back on both food and non-food purchases.

"Of particular concern are the non-food figures, which were the worst single-month performance in six years."

 

Edited by scottish skier
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_101585257_herald.jpg_101585312_scotsman.jpg_101585261_national.jpg

Some examples of the papers today. First two are of course rock solid unionist.

Also worth remembering the Survation poll in February on this subject:

Quote

Under the Scotland Act (1998), policies relating to food, fishing, farming and the environment were devolved to the Scottish Parliament, although in practice they were controlled by the EU. Following Brexit, power over these issues will be repatriated to the UK, but it is unknown whether the UK Parliament in Westminster or the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood will end up having power over these issues. Which of the following statements is closest to your view?

75% When the UK leaves EU, the Scottish Parliament should have control over the issues of food, fishing, farming and the environment

25% When the UK leaves EU, the UK Parliament should have control over the issues of food, fishing, farming and the environment

---

The Scottish and UK governments are locked in a dispute over what happens to powers over areas like farming and fishing which are not reserved to Westminster, but which are currently exercised in Brussels rather than by the devolved parliaments. The Scottish Government, and some Scottish Conservative MPS, fear a ‘'power grab'’ by Westminster, and that formerly devolved powers will remain with the UK Government. The UK Government has insisted that these powers will be devolved ''unless there is a good reason not to'', but have so far failed to act. Which of the following is closest to your view?

32% MPs in Scotland are doing enough to persuade the UK Government to act

68% MPs in Scotland are not doing enough to persuade the UK Government to act

There's your 1997 Yes / Devo maxers / 7 in 10 who either support or are 'not in principle against independence'.

English Tories are totally undermining the Scottish unionists right now. SNP sitting with a cold drink in the sunshine watching with interest. After all, they don't even want devolution; it's unionist. Devolution was designed to 'kill nationalism stone dead'. Well, the Tories are now smashing the stone that was supposed to be used to kill nationalism.

Anyone who sees this as the Tories bashing the SNP is as foolish as the Tories are. This is Scottish unionism getting betrayed just as the nats have always said would happen.

Edited by scottish skier
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Yes, like any member of the EU27 can do. You know, like Malta...Latvia...

Or Ireland; as we are seeing with the border issue.

It's called 'A union of equals'.

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44142333

And he said Scottish government proposals for resolving the "very technical issue which has become the focal point of an unnecessary row" would effectively allow the Holyrood to veto measures which applied across the whole of the UK.

And anyway, Scotland can only weild such a veto if the other countries of the UK wish to remain in union with it. If what Scotland wants is unacceptable, either it can be asked to leave of other nations can leave as appropriate. You know, like the EU.

This is a problem because England wants to govern the UK alone. The idea of it being a partnership like the EU is horrifying to the English nationalists. 

But imagine it was a true partnership of equals. Boy would that make independence a considerably tougher sell for the nats. This thread would be pretty quiet, what with a serious lack of grievances!

That's why the Lib Dems and Labour are praying the Tories back down; a Scottish veto would strengthen the union immeasurably. It would create defacto sovereignty within the UK. Proper home rule. Devo uber max.

The nats meanwhile can only benefit from 'being defeated' in their defense of devolution.

Edited by scottish skier
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 Wings Over Scotland Retweeted

Heart Scotland [email protected]

STV staff have walked out of the broadcaster's HQ in Glasgow in a row over 59 job losses and the closure of the STV2 channel.

Edit: also note, new BBC Scotland Chanel will not now start untill early 2019

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-44126219

 

Edited by frogesque
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Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44146102

Tory MSP quits front bench over 'foolish' lobbying

A Scottish Conservative MSP has quit his front bench role after lobbying councillors over a planning application he had a financial interest in.

Kinda standard stuff for the Tories really.

"I have always had the best interests of my wallet, sorry constituents, at heart".

BBC helping him of course with the emphasis on 'foolish'. Och it was just all a big mistake. Silly really. No harm intended! Ruth's Tories are all good guys at heart. Only human. Just make wee mistakes that could bring large personal financial benefits. We all do that sometimes!

It's like the devo thing. Public are not really outraged. It's just powers over pesticides! Nobody cares about that. Theresa and Westminster only have Scotland's interests at heart. Why all the fuss if they take control of all these powers and undermine devolution. It's really not a big deal.

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7 minutes ago, markyo said:

https://capx.co/nicola-sturgeons-snp-hit-by-a-string-of-scandals/

Every party makes some headlines at some stage SS. Nobody is perfect

Why are you quoting aged and unsubstantiated reports? Is it to try to justify your dislike of the SNP - and incidentally you have never bothered to actually explain the substance behind your views in regard to the SNP. No explanation has been forthcoming as to why you deem SNP policies are abhorrent.You just write a few one-liners in the hope of gaining some agreement from leavers, although you have asserted that you voted to remain.

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/investigation-michelle-thomsons-property-deals-dropped

And I have no truck with any abuse of political power from whatever party source.

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29 minutes ago, ciel said:

why you deem SNP policies are abhorrent

Oh dear,where was that from? Just read back at my post's please instead of posting such dribble. Thank you. As for the rest of your post,basically it makes no sense in my opinion,sorry. I work a lot in Scotland,have a fair understanding of the political landscape. You seem to have totally missed the point i was making,it was not any attack on the SNP in any way,ever political party has it's issues,none are perfect. Leave it that,i just can't be bothered ciel with even trying to discuss this further,again it is pointless.

Edited by markyo
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23 minutes ago, markyo said:

Oh dear,where was that from? Just read back at my post's please instead of posting such dribble. Thank you. As for the rest of your post,basically it makes no sense in my opinion,sorry. I work a lot in Scotland,have a fair understanding of the political landscape. You seem to have totally missed the point i was making,it was not any attack on the SNP in any way,ever political party has it's issues,none are perfect. Leave it that,i just can't be bothered ciel with even trying to discuss this further,again it is pointless.

Apart from the drivel or otherwise you spout, I still await a sensible analysis of your understanding of the "Scottish political landscape."-  apart from your visiting pubs and restaurants on your occasional sojourns to Scotland.

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1 hour ago, markyo said:

https://capx.co/nicola-sturgeons-snp-hit-by-a-string-of-scandals/

Every party makes some headlines at some stage SS. Nobody is perfect

I'm braced for the usual onslaught?

You are now quoting right-wing extremist Tory blogs? A highly impartial source! ?

Michelle Thomson is completely innocent.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/01/fraud-case-against-former-snp-mp-michelle-thomson-dropped/

There is no T in the park scandal. No such thing exists. There was no impropriety on behalf of any SNP politician.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35895948

What on earth do the operations of police Scotland have do with the personal conduct of SNP politicians? You might judge there are party policy failings, but it's nothing to do with personal conduct.

I suggest you actually look into matters before making smears and quoting hardcore thatcherite blogs! ?

And factual, evidence based responses are only 'onslaughts' if you know you've been out-debated.

Edited by scottish skier
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1 hour ago, markyo said:

https://capx.co/nicola-sturgeons-snp-hit-by-a-string-of-scandals/

Every party makes some headlines at some stage SS. Nobody is perfect

I'm braced for the usual onslaught?

Old news would be the fairest comment.

Also, The Times is hardly friendly to the concept of independence.

Odd also that the SNP are held to, and indeed the members expect, a higher standard than any other party. 

However if you really want to go historical, look back to the days of Blunt, Profumo, Aitken and Archer etc. Now they were real slime balls.

Edit: almost forgot, Liar Carmichael, and although never proved, Thorpe.

Edited by frogesque
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On 16/05/2018 at 16:18, frogesque said:

 Wings Over Scotland Retweeted

Heart Scotland [email protected]

STV staff have walked out of the broadcaster's HQ in Glasgow in a row over 59 job losses and the closure of the STV2 channel.

Edit: also note, new BBC Scotland Chanel will not now start untill early 2019

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-44126219

 

BBC Scotland channel starting just as scheduled TV is in it's death throes. Nobody (apart from the old codgers) will be 'waiting up' to watch the 9pm News! 

On demand, catch-up and online are where the smart money already is. Launching a new scheduled TV channel now is like releasing a music album on CD only.

Perhaps MS's ever present paranoia about the BBC's belittling of all things Scottish has some credence.

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Oil price now just shy of $80 a barrel.

This ongoing recovery to realistic prices (to supply demand going forward in a post easy oil world) is, I'm sure, very bad news for Scotland, just as the price collapse was.

Edited by scottish skier
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43 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

Oil price now just shy of $80 a barrel.

This ongoing recovery to realistic prices (to supply demand going forward in a post easy oil world) is, I'm sure, very bad news for Scotland, just as the price collapse was.

Yes diesel price  for the tractors is on the up.

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7 minutes ago, Northernlights said:

Yes diesel price  for the tractors is on the up.

Ha ha. Aye; we cannae go independent if that continues!

You need a wind powered (electric) tractor. Thinking about this, it's probably a perfect option given how tractors don't need to travel long distances; they generally remain close to farms / charge points. If farms have their own turbine (something that seems popular with borders farmers), even better! Battery weight I suppose is less of an issue too given the strength of tractors and their large drive wheels. Changeable batteries would probably be good; something that would be easier with a tractor which is built for having heavy accessories of varying types attached.

Quote

https://electrek.co/2016/12/05/john-deere-electric-tractor-prototype/

John Deere unveils latest all-electric tractor prototype for zero-emission agriculture

 

Edited by scottish skier
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2 hours ago, scottish skier said:

Ha ha. Aye; we cannae go independent if that continues!

You need a wind powered (electric) tractor. Thinking about this, it's probably a perfect option given how tractors don't need to travel long distances; they generally remain close to farms / charge points. If farms have their own turbine (something that seems popular with borders farmers), even better! Battery weight I suppose is less of an issue too given the strength of tractors and their large drive wheels. Changeable batteries would probably be good; something that would be easier with a tractor which is built for having heavy accessories of varying types attached.

 

Get into a whole new layer of politics there as probably the majority of these farms  with turbines are owner occupied. If you are a  farm  tenant your landlord will be looking for a share making it not so financially attractive.

Another point is 50 and 60 km/hour gearboxes now are much more in demand in large tractors so they can cover the vast distances between all the farms they operate on. In fact modern tractors spend more time on the road than they do in the field witness   a  local large scale dairy farm where the constant emptying of the slurry pit involves hundreds of miles of travel on side and main roads which have never been built for such heavy loads and are now breaking up.

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