Jump to content
Cold?
Local
Radar
Snow?

Scottish Politics 2011-2017


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 30.9k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Scottish-Irish Skier

    8874

  • mountain shadow

    1528

  • skifreak

    1435

  • frogesque

    1306

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

Posted Images

13 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

So is my country F.

Aye, mine too. Too precious for the likes of Westminster and their proud Scot butts place men and women.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, frogesque said:

Well I for one needed a good laugh today.

Nicked from Wings:

gus1940 says:

Oh No!!!!!!!

According to Sky News our not so little Lt. Col. has been partaking of the turkey baster and Sky are ecstatic.

Given her current size I hate to think what shape she will be in afew months.

Now being interviewed.

Apparently 13 weeks with child.

Edit: sorry for the Express link but 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/951667/baby-news-scotland-ruth-davidson-pregnant-baby-scottish-conservatives-jen-wilson

Poor bairn. 

A Tory fir a maw

 

 

and a w$%k for a paw!

?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wings Over Scotland Retweeted

Peter Grant MP✔@PeterGrantMP

Dear twitter, thank you for suggesting that the three people in the world I most want to follow are David Mundell, Adam Tomkins and Michael Gove.

I can now sleep easily knowing you don't know nearly as much about me as the newspapers claim.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing to keep emphasizing about the devolved power grab is that it is not about how to divvy up 'Brussels powers'. This implies neither Holyrood nor Westminster has been legislating  / managing in these areas for the past 20-40 years. 

Which is simply not true and is classic brexiter talk; hence the BBC using this approach.

Take fisheries.... 

This is an area jointly controlled by Holyrood and Brussels. Brussels has not been making Scottish laws here while Holyrood just watches. Nope, 28+ nations have been deciding collective rules which then all must abide by. National parliaments then legislative on these areas to ensure compliance. Brussels has never put a single law into Scots law; Holyrood does that, even on EU areas currently devolved. It controls how EU law is integrated into Scots law. It legislates on implementation, management and compliance on all devolved areas.

And Scotland is one of the deciding nations; while its influence on the UK EU Council (heads of state 1 nation 1 vote) 'veto' is limited, it has MEPs in the EU parliament (about half what it would have if independent) which vote on such matters just like German MEPs do.

What the English Tories want is for not 28 nations to decide fisheries policy applicable to all 28, but them / England to decide fisheries policy alone for Scotland. Not only that, but they don't want Scotland to control actual legislation, but for England to legislate directly for Scotland. 

So this is very much about stripping Scotland of devolved powers / the influence Scotland had on those areas it did not decide alone, but collectively with our 27 neighbours.

In 1975 Scotland voted to hand partial control of e.g. fisheries to our shared European government. In 1997 the electorate reaffirmed this, and also voted to transfer much what London controlled - including many EU areas - to Holyrood. At no time have Scots ever voted to change this.

What is happening is an attempt at a power grab that would make Rajoy blush.

And forget the term 'UK' government. There is no such thing. Not since EVEL.

No Scots MP will ever hold major offices of state such as PM, Chancellor etc while they cannot vote on English laws. So there is no UK government, not since 2015. It cannot be called a UK government if a Scots MP can't be PM or chancellor.

Gordon brown was the last ever Scottish UK MP.

Cameron became the first PM of England and the last PM of the UK.

Edited by scottish skier
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

The thing to keep emphasizing about the devolved power grab is that it is not about how to divvy up 'Brussels powers'. This implies neither Holyrood nor Westminster has been legislating  / managing in these areas for the past 20-40 years. 

Which is simply not true and is classic brexiter talk; hence the BBC using this approach.

Take fisheries.... 

This is an area jointly controlled by Holyrood and Brussels. Brussels has not been making Scottish laws here while Holyrood just watches. Nope, 28+ nations have been deciding collective rules which then all must abide by. National parliaments then legislative on these areas to ensure compliance. Brussels has never put a single law into Scots law; Holyrood does that, even on EU areas currently devolved. It controls how EU law is integrated into Scots law. It legislates on implementation, management and compliance on all devolved areas.

And Scotland is one of the deciding nations; while its influence on the UK EU Council (heads of state 1 nation 1 vote) 'veto' is limited, it has MEPs in the EU parliament (about half what it would have if independent) which vote on such matters just like German MEPs do.

What the English Tories want is for not 28 nations to decide fisheries policy applicable to all 28, but them / England to decide fisheries policy alone for Scotland. Not only that, but they don't want Scotland to control actual legislation, but for England to legislate directly for Scotland. 

So this is very much about stripping Scotland of devolved powers / the influence Scotland had on those areas it did not decide alone, but collectively with our 27 neighbours.

In 1975 Scotland voted to hand partial control of e.g. fisheries to our shared European government. In 1997 the electorate reaffirmed this, and also voted to transfer much what London controlled - including many EU areas - to Holyrood. At no time have Scots ever voted to change this.

What is happening is an attempt at a power grab that would make Rajoy blush.

And forget the term 'UK' government. There is no such thing. Not since EVEL.

No Scots MP will ever hold major offices of state such as PM, Chancellor etc while they cannot vote on English laws. So there is no UK government, not since 2015. It cannot be called a UK government if a Scots MP can't be PM or chancellor.

Gordon brown was the last ever Scottish UK MP.

Cameron became the first PM of England and the last PM of the UK.

I'm struggling to find anyone who cares about this. Really, apart from nats on the internet there is almost no mention of it anywhere.

Even the SNP's official stance seems muted as if it was just another domestic issue.

Why?

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Dougal said:

I'm struggling to find anyone who cares about this. Really, apart from nats on the internet there is almost no mention of it anywhere.

Even the SNP's official stance seems muted as if it was just another domestic issue.

Why?

As you'd expect for what will finally break the UK. It's not as if the pro-UK press would be all over it. Scottish unionism is looking very pale right now. The desperation at FMQs yesterday was palatable; literally pleading for agreement.

But nothing has actually happened as yet. Westminster hasn't overruled Holyrood. It hasn't negotiated away devolved fisheries...hasn't force through chlorine washed chicken...hasn't slashed farming subsidies...

The Scottish electorate won't swing based on threats Westminster simply makes but doesn't actually follow through on. Particularly while they remain amendments to readings at stage...It's just us geeks paying close attention to every throw of the dice.

You only need to look at polls months out from votes versus those just ahead to know the 'swing' population just turns its attention and decides in a relatively short space of time. 

In fact if Westminster makes threats then backs down this is likely to even weaken support for indy; it implies Scotland has clout.

If this goes ahead though, a war begins that causes court battle after court battle. The same problem trebled support for indy in both Catalonia and Wales (it's 36% in Wales now!).

Back to the right now...

When you are down to suggesting Wales should decide Scotland's constitutional future it's looking pretty grim. I mean jesus wept, that's actually the unionist argument now; that Scotland should do what Welsh Labour decides. 

For the moment though, negotiations go on. 

Wales was 50.3% Yes, Scotland 74.3% Yes, N. Ireland 71.2% Yes

This is why one government has agreed and the other 2 have not. Why Wales stands isolated on the matter. That and Wales voted Brexit.

It's also why, when asked in polls, 70% of Scots say they either support independence or are not in principle against it / would vote for it.

If devolution is actually rolled back, then the UK will crumble.

Right now, it's just a threat, one Scottish unionism is really, really hoping English nationalism will not follow through on.

The Donald Dewar Labour voters of Scotland really believe in devolution, but are also Scottish first and foremost. They'll vote Yes if it is undone.  

Edited by scottish skier
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

As you'd expect for what will finally break the UK. It's not as if the pro-UK press would be all over it. Scottish unionism is looking very pale right now. The desperation at FMQs yesterday was palatable; literally pleading for agreement.

But nothing has actually happened as yet. Westminster hasn't overruled Holyrood. It hasn't negotiated away devolved fisheries...hasn't force through chlorine washed chicken...hasn't slashed farming subsidies...

The Scottish electorate won't swing based on threats Westminster simply makes but doesn't actually follow through on. Particularly while they remain amendments to readings at stage...It's just us geeks paying close attention to every throw of the dice.

You only need to look at polls months out from votes versus those just ahead to know the 'swing' population just turns its attention and decides in a relatively short space of time. 

In fact if Westminster makes threats then backs down this is likely to even weaken support for indy; it implies Scotland has clout.

If this goes ahead though, a war begins that causes court battle after court battle. The same problem trebled support for indy in both Catalonia and Wales (it's 36% in Wales now!).

Back to the right now...

When you are down to suggesting Wales should decide Scotland's constitutional future it's looking pretty grim. I mean jesus wept, that's actually the unionist argument now; that Scotland should do what Welsh Labour decides. 

For the moment though, negotiations go on. 

Wales was 50.3% Yes, Scotland 74.3% Yes, N. Ireland 71.2% Yes

This is why one government has agreed and the other 2 have not. Why Wales stands isolated on the matter. That and Wales voted Brexit.

It's also why, when asked in polls, 70% of Scots say they either support independence or are not in principle against it / would vote for it.

If devolution is actually rolled back, then the UK will crumble.

Right now, it's just a threat, one Scottish unionism is really, really hoping English nationalism will not follow through on.

The Donald Dewar Labour voters of Scotland really believe in devolution, but are also Scottish first and foremost. They'll vote Yes if it is undone.  

That's a solid reply. But, surely if the overwhelming majority are fiercely protective of devolution they should be making more of a fuss about this now, not waiting until the Tory's dirty deed is done. 'Cos once it's gone, you've lost it forever. Forget the seven years.

I'm still inclined to believe this is too complex an issue to filter through to the man in the street. Boil it down into Express style headlines and I think there'd be more interest.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dougal said:

I'm struggling to find anyone who cares about this. Really, apart from nats on the internet there is almost no mention of it anywhere.

Even the SNP's official stance seems muted as if it was just another domestic issue.

Why?

Because, as has been explained numerous times on here, almost all television, newspaper and online media is pro-Union, therefore, they do not report in a fair and balanced manner (if at all) on issues wish impact on the consitution of Scotland. The very fact that you say few people care, shows how the mainstream media is performing well but also signing their own death warrants.

The collapse of the Scottish print media has been in free fall for some time as they have aliented half the population for a start with their peristant pro Union stance. 

It is in fact amazing that despite the media being almost completely anti SNP, that they have been in power now for over 10 years.

 

Edited by mountain shadow
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dougal said:

That's a solid reply. But, surely if the overwhelming majority are fiercely protective of devolution they should be making more of a fuss about this now, not waiting until the Tory's dirty deed is done. 'Cos once it's gone, you've lost it forever. Forget the seven years.

I'm still inclined to believe this is too complex an issue to filter through to the man in the street. Boil it down into Express style headlines and I think there'd be more interest.

Why would pro-union media make a big thing out of it? Why would they big up the threat to devo? Why would they try to help the SNP in this way.

That makes no sense at all. Especially as devo remains intact for now. 

I think the difficulty for you in understanding the situation is that you are English. Westminster is your parliament. You will always see things through that prism. Ultimately, Corbyn and May are both English. Like them or not they are yours.

For about 30% in Scotland, Westminster is the same. They're British and it's their parliament. Even if it's doing things they don't like it is still theirs. For a majority of unionist MPs this applies too.

This is why Welsh Labour so easily came to a deal. For most Welsh MSPs (and Welsh people) Westminster is their parliament too as they're British. 

This doesn't apply in Scotland. At least 70% either back indy or would happily vote for that if they thought it the best option. This includes the 53% that already back indy in the medium to long terms.

They are also the 7/10 that back devo max. They are first and foremost Scottish. They are not forgiving to Westminster in the same way because it is not theirs. 

This lack of any 'sentimental' attachment means the UK hangs together based on the votes of people who are weakly to not at all British, and don't have any forgiveness when it comes to Westminster as it's not their parliament nor country. 

Their vote is practical and based on hard, cold economics vs sovereignty. They weighed this up in 2014 and figured the risks of indy vs union were too high vs percieved benefit. With brexit, they now favour independence, albeit it 8% or so want Scexit so wish to wait for brexit to complete before moving to indy.

You are English. If your government sinks your ship you go down with it. What else can you do? England can't become independent from itself. 

The single biggest reason given for Yes in 2014 was sovereignty; that Scotland should make its own decisions. If it appears devo is being reversed, then the UK will crumble.

The reason devo works is because of this:

LCM%20GRAPH%20NEW%20FORMAT%20MAR18.png

Permission is given. There has never been any meaningful clash. 

If permission is constantly being refused but overruled by the English Tories, and on contentious issues, the union will break.

I suspect Labour in Wales will take a hit to Plaid Cymru in time due to their capitulation. Soon they will be forced to capitulate again, and again, and again.... Once the Tories see you weak, they'll turn the thumbscrew. 

The English Tories will sell out Wales to better their own brexit. 

Thank god we have an SNP + Green majority to defend Dewar's Devo.

Edited by scottish skier
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is this too.

What really helped scupper Yes in 2014 was the economic recovery.

Indy went from looking like a way out of 'double dip recessions' in 2012 to a much more risky prospect as UK growth nearly trebled to late 2014.

united-kingdom-gdp-growth-annual.png?s=u

It's this that most likely saved the UK by just keeping the balance tipped in its favour. Without it, Scotland would probably already be independent.

Of course things have gone into reverse since 2015 and the brexit journey began. 

Unless you are in Europe.

Edited by scottish skier
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Dougal said:

I'm struggling to find anyone who cares about this. Really, apart from nats on the internet there is almost no mention of it anywhere.

Even the SNP's official stance seems muted as if it was just another domestic issue.

Why?

Because no self respecting SNP MP would want to be PM of the UK. Indeed the intention is to have no Scottish MPs based in an English Parliament. The point is, at present NO Scottish MP ( or Welsh or from NI) could EVER become PM regardless of party or aliegience.

The words of Tricia Marwick, ex Presiding Officer at Holyrood summed it up when she retired and was offered honours and a seat in the HoL. Being Presiding Officer in Holyrood had been Honour enough!

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On the BBC's website you have to go to local news / Scotland / Scottish politics and then scroll down to the sixth article to find a mention of this topic.

On the website of 'The National' its way, way down on the list of news items.

Even on the SNP's website it's only third item up.

No wonder the Tories are so confident they can get away with their power grab.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, frogesque said:

Because no self respecting SNP MP would want to be PM of the UK. Indeed the intention is to have no Scottish MPs based in an English Parliament. The point is, at present NO Scottish MP ( or Welsh or from NI) could EVER become PM regardless of party or aliegience.

The words of Tricia Marwick, ex Presiding Officer at Holyrood summed it up when she retired and was offered honours and a seat in the HoL. Being Presiding Officer in Holyrood had been Honour enough!

 

 

Presumably, they could be PM if they represented an English constituency. Just saying. Blair did obviously (before the changes I know).

Btw, it's not unlikely that our next PM will be a New Yorker by birth. I guess that means he could be PM and POTUS in his lifetime. 

....just imagine what that would look like!

Edited by Dougal
Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Presumably, they could be PM if they represented an English constituency. Just saying. Blair did obviously (before the changes I know).

Btw, it's not unlikely that our next PM will be a New Yorker by birth. I guess that means he could be PM and POTUS in his lifetime. 

....just imagine what that would look like!

220px-Chucky_(Child's_Play).jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dougal said:

Presumably, they could be PM if they represented an English constituency. Just saying. Blair did obviously (before the changes I know).

Btw, it's not unlikely that our next PM will be a New Yorker by birth. I guess that means he could be PM and POTUS in his lifetime. 

....just imagine what that would look like!

Huh? Are you into blood and soil nationalism?

By 'Scottish MP' I meant someone representing a Scottish constituency. Where they were born matters sweet FA.

Under EVEL, a MP from a Scottish constituency - i.e. who is representing Scottish people (note this means they live in Scotland rather than e.g. they have tartan blood:wink:) - will never be PM or chancellor.

How could they if they can't vote on matters English? Would they sit out e.g. NHS debates in the house and on TV

There is no 'UK government' as a result. Scots, Welsh and N. Irish MPs cannot hold the main offices of the British state any more so the UK government is now the English one.

It's just another crack in the crumbling edifice. 

Edited by scottish skier
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, scottish skier said:

Huh? Are you into blood and soil nationalism?

By 'Scottish MP' I meant someone representing a Scottish constituency. Where they were born matters sweet FA.

Under EVEL, a MP from a Scottish constituency - i.e. who is representing Scottish people (note this means they live in Scotland rather than e.g. they have tartan blood:wink:) - will never be PM or chancellor.

How could they if they can't vote on matters English? Would they sit out e.g. NHS debates in the house and on TV

There is no 'UK government' as a result. Scots, Welsh and N. Irish MPs cannot hold the main offices of the British state any more so the UK government is now the English one.

It's just another crack in the crumbling edifice. 

Just saying....(as I said)

Anyway, it's probably a blessing in disguise. I spent some years living in the constituency of the then Chancellor. He was hardly in a position to concentrate on representing the people who had elected him. He was, apparently, rarely present at surgeries and spent the vast majority of his time on cabinet matters in London and abroad.

At least, by and large, Scotland gets local representation at Westminster. Many people in England are represented by some chinless wonder who's been parachuted in by Tory central office, has lived in the constituency 20 minutes and knows about as much about local issues as they do about the price of a pint of milk.

As long as the armies of blue rinses are happy to vote for anything with a blue rosette on it, there's stuff all the rest of us can do about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, markyo said:

Wow,Nicola Sturgeon really has let her self go!....:D

Whereas  May has always looked like Cruella De Vil?:D

c18775b82ac4f4b71db0701d16a3794f.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

We totally dodged a bullet by voting No.

Thank god for the good old strong and stable UK.

It's great that the UK has a solid plan for brexit and the N. Ireland border is already all sorted.

Imagine this were not the case; BoE would to make serious plans for a cliff edge crash!

Quote

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-banks/uk-eu-banking-regulators-team-up-in-case-of-cliff-edge-brexit-idUKKBN1HY1VI

UK, EU banking regulators team up in case of cliff-edge Brexit

LONDON (Reuters) - The Bank of England and European Central Bank will create a task force to keep markets orderly in the event of a “cliff edge” Brexit next March.

 

Edited by scottish skier
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...