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56 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

British unionists planning a march against dictatorial, 'anti-democratic' London rule.

Labour and Lib Dems protesting against Westminster rule is becoming quite a thing.

As per usual, ScotLab and the other lot completely missing the point. Independence is the only way Scotland will have any voice that counts. On any subject including the bombing of Syria.

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And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

Posted Images

 

 

 

" I see that Bungling Boris the Clown has awarded Fishing licences rights to the 200 Square Miles around Argentina’s Falkland islands to companies from Norway and Chile.

The British Companies who applied were rejected.

If there is a brain cell available in the collective of Scotland’s Unionist Fishermen, could they finally pull in their nets and look at what the catch is?

Money for Westminster and on to the rich elite is all that matters in Tory Land.

Labour isn’t an option either as we say Red Herrings for a reason".

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20180414/281784219677151

 

When will the Scottish Unionist fishermen finally scrape the scales from their eyes?:rolleyes:

 

Edited by Blitzen
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1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

 

 

 

" I see that Bungling Boris the Clown has awarded Fishing licences rights to the 200 Square Miles around Argentina’s Falkland islands to companies from Norway and Chile.

The British Companies who applied were rejected.

If there is a brain cell available in the collective of Scotland’s Unionist Fishermen, could they finally pull in their nets and look at what the catch is?

Money for Westminster and on to the rich elite is all that matters in Tory Land.

Labour isn’t an option either as we say Red Herrings for a reason".

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20180414/281784219677151

 

When will the Scottish Unionist fishermen finally scrape the scales from their eyes?:rolleyes:

 

Happily singing "Rule Britannia" to the accompanying glug of the scuppers.

 

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Labour will split openly on independence in the face of a harder brexit with devo trashed.

We know plenty of them quietly voted Yes last time, including 1/3 of their voters. This time it will be openly so. 

A 'Labour for Indy' official party would do well in elections.

Libs much the same.

Devo is their baby. Their union. Their Britain. English nationalists are trashing both it and their EU.

Only 30% of the electorate state they just won't back indy (as it is existential for them); they're the around same 3/10 that voted No in 1997.

If you have a Lab  + Lib parties recommending indy like they did devo back in the day, the UK is over.

I think that's what's being missed here. The Engish nationalist Tories think they can quietly get away with it as the other pro-UK parties will grumble and accept it because they back the UK union. Much like 2014. If that happens, voters tend to follow them; certainly those loyal to particular parties. Also easy to keep out of the press so voters miss what's happening.

This is a very different situation now. In 2014, EU membership and enhanced devo could be promised by Lab + Lib if we stayed. Now they are having they things that they want themselves taken from them by the UK. Devo cannot be trashed quietly as a result. It's too much; it will break them.

Quote

https://archive.li/DwdHE#selection-2417.1-2435.154

Former Labour first minister Henry McLeish backs indyref 2 within next five years after "fraudulent" 2014 case

FORMER First Minister Henry McLeish has said that voters in Scotland deserve a second independence referendum and he expects it could be "well within" the next five years.

The former Scottish Labour leader said a “fraudulent” prospectus was placed before Scots in 2014 and many voted No on the basis that remaining in the UK also meant being in the EU.

 

Edited by scottish skier
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Jings!...........Are we YES yet?

 

The UK Government has been accused of a “devastating betrayal” after nearly 500 HMRC staff in Dundee were told the planned transfer of their jobs to the Department of Work and Pensions has been shelved.;
https://twitter.com/blacktriangle1/status/985825648068513792

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/635702/betrayed-dundee-hmrc-staff-told-no-jobs-transfer-to-dwp/

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And so the attack on devolution begins.

The SNP were right all along.

They told Labour and the Lib dems time and again that at some point Scottish people / their parliament would vote in a way England didn't like.

At that point England would move to roll back devolution, rendering it at best pointless.

That has now begun.

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43742208

Legal challenge to Democracy Initiated

The English government has launched a legal challenge to the Scottish and Welsh governments in an attempt to forcibly take control of their devolved powers without democratic consent.

The two devolved parliaments passed emergency legislation last month intended to protect democracy in the face of this attack.

But the English government has asked its Supreme Court to rule whether this legislation can be overturned, allowing their power grab to proceed and 1997 referendum results to be overruled.

 

 

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1 hour ago, scottish skier said:

And so the attack on devolution begins.

The SNP were right all along.

They told Labour and the Lib dems time and again that at some point Scottish people / their parliament would vote in a way England didn't like.

At that point England would move to roll back devolution, rendering it at best pointless.

That has now begun.

 

 

It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out in the Supreme Court, but with a majority English judges I wouldn't hold out much hope for a Scottish Parliament victory.

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18 minutes ago, mountain shadow said:

It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out in the Supreme Court, but with a majority English judges I wouldn't hold out much hope for a Scottish Parliament victory.

Yes but if the Scottish Parliament loses, the Scottish nationalists win.

If the Scottish Parliament wins, they also win.

The Tories are not taking on Scottish nationalism, they are attacking Scottish unionism. They are trying to crush the very justification Labour and the Lib dems give themselves and their voters for staying in the UK.

This has a long way to run and if the Tories don't back down, they will break devolution and the UK with it.

This isn't 'Sturgeons' Bill. The Tories are taking Scottish unionism to court to try and undo Donald Dewar's legacy. 

They are attacking the parliament and will of the 74% and the 55%....not the 45%.

But they are so arrogantly blinded by their own stupidity, they cannot see it. The see Sturgeon and froth at the mouth; but it's not her devolution. Her supporters back indy. Devo is her opponents baby.

The SNP want this in court and the defeat / rolling back of devolution only means independence will happen a lot sooner.

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3 hours ago, scottish skier said:

Yes but if the Scottish Parliament loses, the Scottish nationalists win.

If the Scottish Parliament wins, they also win.

The Tories are not taking on Scottish nationalism, they are attacking Scottish unionism. They are trying to crush the very justification Labour and the Lib dems give themselves and their voters for staying in the UK.

This has a long way to run and if the Tories don't back down, they will break devolution and the UK with it.

This isn't 'Sturgeons' Bill. The Tories are taking Scottish unionism to court to try and undo Donald Dewar's legacy. 

They are attacking the parliament and will of the 74% and the 55%....not the 45%.

But they are so arrogantly blinded by their own stupidity, they cannot see it. The see Sturgeon and froth at the mouth; but it's not her devolution. Her supporters back indy. Devo is her opponents baby.

The SNP want this in court and the defeat / rolling back of devolution only means independence will happen a lot sooner.

I agree, but this is not the message that will be played out in the MSM.

Firstly, the decision will be kept low key to keep it out of the media and secondly it will be advertised as a "defeat for Sturgeon" or "defeat for the SNP" as opposed to it being a decision which confirms the subservience of the Scottish people to Westminster. 

 

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1 hour ago, mountain shadow said:

I agree, but this is not the message that will be played out in the MSM.

Firstly, the decision will be kept low key to keep it out of the media and secondly it will be advertised as a "defeat for Sturgeon" or "defeat for the SNP" as opposed to it being a decision which confirms the subservience of the Scottish people to Westminster. 

 

I know what you mean, but...

But the SNP are not in power in Wales or in N. Ireland. How can the Welsh parliament being crushed be a 'blow for sturgeon'?

And Lab + Lib in Scotland really want to win the case while the SNP don't mind losing. You are going to see pro-devo / indy leaning Labour and Lib MSPs increasingly attacking Westminster and even turning to indy.

This is just the opening battle. Even if the Supreme Court ruled the current bills as not competent, both parliaments can just revise and pass new bills accordingly. What then, back to court?

And a supreme court ruling on this current case does not give Westminster consent to force its Brexit bill on Scotland. They still needed legislative consent for that, which will be refused unless it respects devolution. Lab + Lib will continue to back this; they've no choice or they'll never be in power in Scotland ever again. If they won't defend devo, the electorate will not elect them to govern a devolved parliament.

Notice how cool the SNP are about all this? Don't worry, this is a total f'n disaster for the UK and if it goes ahead, will break the UK finally.

The English nationalist Tories are out of control. They have no devious, sensible plan. Brexit is all going to hell around them and they don't understand British unionism / devolution.

This is not a battle they can win; all they can do is lose it like they are losing brexit negotiations and the Irish border.

The BBC etc are desperately trying to cover for them, but this is going to explode and it can't be hidden.

Now sit back and watch the SNP stand by Lab + Lib in their defense of devolved unionism while the Tories try to destroy this. The SNP don't really want to win.

This is only just kicking off. 

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8 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

I know what you mean, but...

But the SNP are not in power in Wales or in N. Ireland. How can the Welsh parliament being crushed be a 'blow for sturgeon'?

And Lab + Lib in Scotland really want to win the case while the SNP don't mind losing. You are going to see pro-devo / indy leaning Labour and Lib MSPs increasingly attacking Westminster and even turning to indy.

This is just the opening battle. Even if the Supreme Court ruled the current bills as not competent, both parliaments can just revise and pass new bills accordingly. What then, back to court?

And a supreme court ruling on this current case does not give Westminster consent to force its Brexit bill on Scotland. They still needed legislative consent for that, which will be refused unless it respects devolution. Lab + Lib will continue to back this; they've no choice or they'll never be in power in Scotland ever again. If they won't defend devo, the electorate will not elect them to govern a devolved parliament.

Notice how cool the SNP are about all this? Don't worry, this is a total f'n disaster for the UK and if it goes ahead, will break the UK finally.

The English nationalist Tories are out of control. They have no devious, sensible plan. Brexit is all going to hell around them and they don't understand British unionism / devolution.

This is not a battle they can win; all they can do is lose it like they are losing brexit negotiations and the Irish border.

The BBC etc are desperately trying to cover for them, but this is going to explode and it can't be hidden.

Now sit back and watch the SNP stand by Lab + Lib in their defense of devolved unionism while the Tories try to destroy this. The SNP don't really want to win.

This is only just kicking off. 

Sometimes the paranoia on this thread is real faked moon landing stuff! :)

The UK govt are challenging a Scotgov bill. That's all at the moment. Preempting the media's 'cover up' of the result is a bit daft.

It's worth remembering that although we all have a fairly decent grasp of what is going on, there are just too many long words involved for most people to really care about this.

SS, despite your oft trotted out assertions that 'everyone in Scotland knows this...' the truth is people's political engagement doesn't extend to the minutiae of political events which add up to the important issues.

I can pretty much guarantee that the man in the street has to think hard if asked what 'devolution' is. Most won't really be sure what democracy is. These are just words which don't enter their world and so you can hardly expect people to have much of a grasp of what's going on at the moment.

I said a while back that May would try and get this through under the radar. So far that's what's happening. Blanket the whole thing in a fog of political jargon and its job done.

Rather than sitting back and being cool about this, the SNP should be shouting a clear message of what's required.

Trouble is they're terrified of saying the 'i' word as they know it turns off the undecideds.

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It really is win-win for the Scottish nationalists.

English nationalists cannot win against Scottish nationalists.

Only British unionism can hope to defeat them - as it did in 1997 with devo and 2014 with the offer of substantially more devo...

...yet that's what and who the Tories are attacking.

Quote

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/westminster-taking-edinburgh-and-cardiff-court-eu-continuity-bills

Westminster is taking Edinburgh and Cardiff to court – but it faces difficulties even if it wins

...If the Supreme Court judges these bills within competence, then the devolved executives will have new leverage to pressure the Government into amending to the EU Withdrawal Bill, to which they have consistently refused to grant consent under the Sewel Convention.

If agreement on the EU Withdrawal Bill is reached, then Scottish and Welsh ministers might be willing to drop their continuity bills, but they will extract a price in terms of greater devolved control over powers returning from Brussels.

Alternatively, the UK Government could refuse to amend the EU Withdrawal Bill and simply legislate over the top of the devolved bodies, rendering the Scottish and Welsh bills ineffective despite the court ruling in their favour. But this would be highly controversial and the Government might struggle to gain a parliamentary majority for this.

But the Government could still face problems even if the court rules in their favour. One possible outcome is that the court gives the devolved legislatures the option to amend their continuity bills to bring them back within competence. This would extend the dispute further, at a time when the timetable to implement Brexit is already ambitious.

And even if the continuity bills are struck down in their entirety, this will not help get the EU Withdrawal Bill through. Scotland and Wales are likely to withhold consent in any case, and while legally possible, proceeding without consent would be a risky strategy for Westminster to follow.

The only way Westminster can realistically win is to basically overrule democracy and render devolution meaningless.

With a majority now backing independence in principle in Scotland, it's utter madness, but the English government has lost the plot.

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18 minutes ago, Dougal said:

The UK govt are challenging a Scotgov bill.

No they are not. They are challenging the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Parliament. And the N. Irish Parliament by default.

This is not SNP vs Tory. That is the mistake the Tories are making and it's a very, very stupid one.

The Scottish continuity bill is a Scottish Parliament bill supported by the SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens. The bill is in effect from Labour and the Lib Dems, with the SNP and Greens backing them to get it through. Devolution belongs to Labour and the Libs; It's their creation, their union.

The bills are to protect the parliament and its democracy; they are not 'SNP policy'.

The same is happening in Wales.

This is an attack on the 74% and 55% not the 45%. And that is key.

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2 hours ago, scottish skier said:

No they are not. They are challenging the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Parliament. And the N. Irish Parliament by default.

This is not SNP vs Tory. That is the mistake the Tories are making and it's a very, very stupid one.

The Scottish continuity bill is a Scottish Parliament bill supported by the SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens. The bill is in effect from Labour and the Lib Dems, with the SNP and Greens backing them to get it through. Devolution belongs to Labour and the Libs; It's their creation, their union.

The bills are to protect the parliament and its democracy; they are not 'SNP policy'.

The same is happening in Wales.

This is an attack on the 74% and 55% not the 45%. And that is key.

You see, even I get the details wrong and I thought I was paying attention!

May's trying to get away with this because she has no alternative and like any good con man, she'll have got what she wants before people work out what happened.

I certainly don't agree with what's happening but I'd be surprised if the SNP can spin it to create a seismic shift for 'yes' down the road. May must think that too.

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25 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

You see, even I get the details wrong and I thought I was paying attention!

May's trying to get away with this because she has no alternative and like any good con man, she'll have got what she wants before people work out what happened.

I certainly don't agree with what's happening but I'd be surprised if the SNP can spin it to create a seismic shift for 'yes' down the road. May must think that too.

Maybe, but that doesn't save the union, just breaks it.

It's not possible to get away with this as it sets up a continuous, perpetual clash between the devolved nations and Westminster. 

I mean of Westminster actually tries to take control of Scots fisheries and impose its rules, that's a major clash. Clashes over agriculture...the environment. Fight after fight after fight. 

And Labour and the Libs will fight the Tories over this; the SNP and Greens will back them to the hilt.

Wales has increasingly been clashing with London. Notice how unionist Wales seems to be refusing LCMs more than nationalist Scotland?

LCM%20GRAPH%20NEW%20FORMAT%20MAR18.png

That's because London keeps trying to take control of Welsh powers. Relations have become worse and worse. The Wales Act was supposed to help resolve this, making wales more like Scotland, but the first thing Westminster is doing is now trying to undo that.

Quote

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/wales-act-new-dawn-welsh-devolution

The Wales Act: a new dawn for Welsh devolution?

On 1 April 2018, the Wales Act came into force. It shifts the Welsh Assembly to a ‘reserved powers’ model of devolution, alongside introducing a number of new taxation and borrowing powers. The move to this new model means that the Welsh Assembly is free to pass legislation on all matters which are not explicitly reserved to Westminster, such as defence, foreign affairs, and justice...

...

The move to a reserved powers model was intended to eliminate these ‘silent subjects’, and end “the constant squabbles over where powers lie”, according to the Secretary of State for Wales Alun Cairns. Now, if an issue is not explicitly reserved to the UK Government, it must be considered devolved.

However, the squabbles might not be over.

In England they don't tell you what's happening.

I think you have got to understand that for most Welsh, Scots and N. Irish, Westminster isn't their parliament. The UK is like the EU for them. Most don't even identify as British. That doesn't mean they support indy however, just as many brits support 'Remain' but don't feel emotionally like Europe is their country. 

But what they Tories are attempting will set in motion a major clash that can only escalate. It can't go unnoticed by general public because of the profound effects. That and they are attacking unionists, not nationalists. Specifically the weaker sort of unionist who wants more devolution.

EDIT

Look what's happening:

wales.png

A majority in Wales are no longer opposed to indy, and support is up to 36% (ex DK).

Edited by scottish skier
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The English government need to step back from the brink here.

They are destroying relations between themselves and all the other three home nations. 

It's no use pretending to be the 'UK' government on the matter. Nobody is fooled. The UK government deals with reserved matters; it doesn't try to legislate on devolved matters. 

This is why all the 3 home nations and every party bar the Tories + DUP are up in arms about this.

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43807242

Brexit row 'reaching endgame' - Sturgeon

The dispute between the UK and Scottish governments over Brexit is reaching its "endgame" with a resolution needed in days rather than weeks, Nicola Sturgeon has said.

The first minister said she "genuinely hopes" an agreement can be reached over what happens to powers in devolved areas after the UK leaves the EU.

She said ministers from the two sides are likely to meet next week.

But she stressed that "we are not there yet" on a deal.

The Scottish and Welsh governments have repeatedly branded the UK government's EU Withdrawal Bill a "power grab" which threatens the devolution settlement, and have refused to recommend legislative consent unless it is amended...

...Speaking as she faced questions from the conveners of Holyrood's various committee, Ms Sturgeon expressed her "deep regret" that the issue had been referred to the Supreme Court, which she said did not help to build trust while negotiations between the governments were ongoing.

She added: "The Westminster government had a decision to make, whether to respect the decision the Scottish Parliament arrived at or not to respect it, and unfortunately they opted not to and referred to the Supreme Court."

By taking this to the supreme court, the English government has demonstrated how it has no respect for the other home nations or democracy.

There is still time for it to step back, respect devolution, and accept it is just 1 vote of 4 when it comes to deciding brexit trade deals.

EDIT 

And the BBC is doing it's best to cover for the Tories.

Not the use of the word Scottish and Welsh 'government', implying SNP...Lab... A party political dispute. 

It's not this and the BBC knows it fine well. It is a constitutional dispute between the EVEL English government and the Scottish / Welsh (and N. Irish) parliaments. One between the people of Wales and Scotland and the English government. It is not party political, but about basic democracy.

Edited by scottish skier
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Brexit had slashed the number of skilled workers coming to Scotland.

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43822306

...the rate of [population] growth has slowed compared with previous years.

This is due to a reduction in overall net migration, with 23,900 more people moving to Scotland from overseas or elsewhere in the UK in the year to 30 June.

This was lower than the 31,700 more people who moved to the country in the previous year.

Some 13,400 more people migrated to Scotland from overseas than left in the year to June, but this was lower than the previous year when it was 22,900.

If you lived through the 80's/90's when 1 in 10 left in search of a better life, this should worry you a lot.

EDIT

Related.

 

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Another dividend for the NE economy from England's brexit.

Quote

https://archive.li/zGUm0

Offshore firms face £145million bill due to Brexit customs charges

Customs charges due to Brexit could cost the offshore industry £145million this summer and £120million every year thereafter, north-east firms have been warned.

The bombshell has been delivered to the oil and gas industry in letters sent out by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

 

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I see the BBC is celebrating the anniversary of Enoch Powell's speech.

The justification is it's British history.

Except that it's not as it's English history.

But I suppose if we stay in the union, it becomes our history and we live in his shadow.

After all, some xenophobic Tory from down south will have their fat little fingers flicking through Mrs SS's papers soon enough thanks to brexit.

Aye Theresa May, having never stood for election in Scotland, will be drawing up the list of who gets to stay and who she wants to deport.

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/after_enoch_powell

After Enoch

On 20 April 1968, Enoch Powell delivered one of the most divisive speeches ever made by a British politician. 

By permitting mass immigration, he said the country was 'heaping up its own funeral pyre'.

Of course we do have our racists here too. However, we've not put them in charge. Well, apart from when we voted No in 2014 and let Westminster run things. 

 

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1 hour ago, scottish skier said:

#hostile_environment

Jeezo. 

Thon Momentum is a busted flush. 

If I was May, I would go for another quick fire election. 

Get a 30 seat majority, ditch the DUP, border in the Irish Sea and secure passporting for London at expense of Fisheries. 

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Nats are just paranoid about the BBC being anti-indy and a mouthpiece of the UK government.

I mean where's the evidence for it?

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-43754737

The vetting files: How the BBC kept out ‘subversives’

For decades the BBC denied that job applicants were subject to political vetting by MI5. But in fact vetting began in the early days of the BBC and continued until the 1990s. Paul Reynolds, the first journalist to see all the BBC's vetting files, tells the story of the long relationship between the corporation and the Security Service.

 

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