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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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1 minute ago, Dougal said:

I'd keep that quiet if I were you. Never a healthy position if your policies require support from the tie dye and lentil brigade in a search for credibility.

:rofl:

Brilliant

Edited by CreweCold
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And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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1 minute ago, Dougal said:

I'd keep that quiet if I were you. Never a healthy position if your policies require support from the tie dye and lentil brigade in a search for credibility.

At least the Greens don't beat you up and kickyou if you cross their path. Unlike the Orange bigots on a march.

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1 minute ago, Gael_Force said:

You could write the exact same paragraphs in relation to Brexit. A nation almost equally divided on leaving or remaining in the EU. Life altering decisions are being executed, based on a very slim majority. What is different about Scotland deciding it wants a different path ... even if it is one decided on a similar, narrow majority?

agreed, but I wasn't commenting on Brexit, I was commenting on Indyref, so you're not really replying to my post to be fair.....So what happens when Indyref is called and in this scenario NO wins?......is that it for another generation, or will the SNP engineer another rapid Indyref?.....(yes, I am cynical, I'm cynical of a lot of politics, and indyref2 is no different IMO, brexit was the perfect excuse for the Nationalists to go for Indyref2, if Brexit never happened, the SNP would've found another trigger, rest assured!)..NS is taking a real political gamble here, politically it's winner takes all, if they force indyref2 and wins, she will be what she's dreamed of, prime/first minister of an indy Scotland, if she loses, the Scottish people IMO won't have the appetite to being asked the question again for the foreseeable future

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3 minutes ago, NorthernRab said:

BNP.jpg?1364842562

Is this crowd more to your tastes sir? :D

I can't say it is, no. Considering I cannot stand racism in any way shape or form and feel very very strongly about this. 

So carry on with your cheap shots, by all accounts.

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Just now, NorthernRab said:

BNP.jpg?1364842562

Is this crowd more to your tastes sir? :D

on behalf of the vast majority of English, Scot, Welsh and Northern Irish citizens, thank god the BNP are an utter irrelevance in current politics...I think that is one thing we can all agree on!

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9 minutes ago, ajpoolshark said:

agreed, but I wasn't commenting on Brexit, I was commenting on Indyref, so you're not really replying to my post to be fair.....So what happens when Indyref is called and in this scenario NO wins?......is that it for another generation, or will the SNP engineer another rapid Indyref?.....(yes, I am cynical, I'm cynical of a lot of politics, and indyref2 is no different IMO, brexit was the perfect excuse for the Nationalists to go for Indyref2, if Brexit never happened, the SNP would've found another trigger, rest assured!)..NS is taking a real political gamble here, politically it's winner takes all, if they force indyref2 and wins, she will be what she's dreamed of, prime/first minister of an indy Scotland, if she loses, the Scottish people IMO won't have the appetite to being asked the question again for the foreseeable future

First off, neither the wife nor I have ever voted SNP and we were both unionists. This time around we would vote YES in a new referendum .... purely because of the Brexit vote. You cannot separate the two issues, they are closely intertwined as the English government are taking the UK on a path that many Scots do not want to follow!

Edited by Gael_Force
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You can read two things about the hardening position of the UK government in trying to delay this referendum past 2021.

They expect a long transition period so the UK leaves but sort of doesn't with it remaining in the single market for at least another year and don't expect any trade deal to be agreed by 2019 or are hoping that the SNP don't do well in the next Scottish election and lose their ability to command a majority.

Trying to delay this referendum is likely to backfire, it looks very undemocratic and really won't go down well north of the border.

A narrative seems to have built up that Westminster has to give its permission to make the referendum legal but this really is on shaky ground. Its not about legality but just Westminster agreeing to accept the result.

Its what the public think north of the border, Westminster will try to make out that a unilateral ref is illegal and try to get those supporting the Union to boycott it.

Scotlands situation is vastly different to that of Catalonia, and any comparisons in terms of ability to call a legal referendum don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

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19 minutes ago, Gael_Force said:

First off, neither the wife or I have ever voted SNP and we were both unionists. This time around we would vote YES in a new referendum .... purely because of the Brexit vote. You cannot separate the two issues, they are closely intertwined as the English government are taking the UK on a path that many Scots do not want to follow!

You can untwine them, they are separate issues....The SNP will have you believe otherwise, intertwining of them suits their needs and agenda.....The thing is, is that many scots do want to follow that path, 38% is obviously a minority, but it's a large minority, hell 38% of the vote in the UK get's a party into government!........TM will block section 30 or at the least delay it, and if NS plows on regardless (using the various methods that Frogesque highlighted earlier) she risks turning off wavering potential YES voters who are simply battle-weary and may start to see the SNP as tunnel visioned to the extent of everything bar independence (and polling, if it is to believed, is suggesting a sizeable chunk of the Scottish electorate are thinking this way)

Obviously I don't have an answer, at least one that everyone would think fair.....If I claimed to have one, I'd be a liar!......as I mentioned, win or lose, an unholy mess awaits a bitterly divided nation....and if you do intertwine the 2 issues, then England/Wales/NI face their own unholy mess regardless of how Brexit pans out

Edited by ajpoolshark
correcting many typos...on my tablet!
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19 minutes ago, ajpoolshark said:

You can untwine them, they are separate issues.

Disagree. What binds these two issues is the notion of, and consequently the democratic right of  Scottish self-determination in the circumstances of Brexit. 

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May signing the union death warrant I see.

Excellent news.

Utterly out of her depth when it comes to international relations. A total amateur. Going to get a fright after the morn.

---

Back in the parliament that matters / that represents the people of Scotland.

I see an 'overwhelming, referendum definitely means referendum / the people have spoken level' of backing in support of the new referendum motion.

Edited by scottish skier
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If an advisory referendum was good enough for the EU vote and all we've heard ever since is the "will of the people" then why isn't it good enough for a Scottish independence referendum.

Sturgeon should use this option if need be and make sure to go all out in comparing an indy ref to the EU vote. The hypocrisy coming out of Westminster on this issue is nauseating.

You either support democracy or don't, or is it a case of only when it suits some Tory politicians.

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6 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

May signing the union death warrant I see.

Excellent news.

Utterly out of her depth when it comes to international relations. A total amateur. Going to get a fright after the morn.

It certainly is excellent news ss  lets see what happens next 

Edited by weirpig
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1 hour ago, ajpoolshark said:

So what happens when Indyref is called and in this scenario NO wins?......is that it for another generation, or will the SNP engineer another rapid Indyref?....

If they get support in the parliament for that and they want to, then yes. That's how democracy works.

I would imagine they'd put it in their manifesto again of course. Like they've done the past two times they've been elected.

If people are really that much against a new iref, they can just not vote SNP (or e.g. Green, who just voted with the SNP).

I mean if someone is really, really against independence / a new iref goes out and votes SNP, then what kind of prize dumbass are they. 

Edited by scottish skier
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2 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

If they get support in the parliament for that and they want to, then yes. That's how democracy works.

I would imagine they'd put it in their manifesto again of course. Like they've done the past two times they've been elected.

If people are really that much against a new iref, they can just not vote SNP (or e.g. Green, who just voted with the SNP).

I'm afraid thats where you argument falls down a bit. Work quite a bit in Scotland,spoken to many. I would say most support the SNP but there first concern is not another indref,much more the economy,job security,welfare etc. 

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9 minutes ago, markyo said:

I'm afraid thats where you argument falls down a bit. Work quite a bit in Scotland,spoken to many. I would say most support the SNP but there first concern is not another indref,much more the economy,job security,welfare etc. 

If the folk you discuss are unhappy, they can just not vote SNP next time. They voted for today and I thank them greatly

Folk need to accept democracy and move on.

Enough from me on this subject. Democracy has spoken. 

Will the UK prove it is a democracy or not? If not, Scotland must leave.

Up to May and co.

--

You can tell the union is on its last legs when we are down to unionists claiming a parliamentary vote by parties elected under PR is somehow not legit (in Scotland, elsewhere it's fine) and trying to actually block democracy.

Hence me saying 'Day the union died' etc.

I personally think this is all great. When Dave 'agreed' quickly last time, he hurt the Yes camp. He was much wiser than May.

Edited by scottish skier
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1 hour ago, ajpoolshark said:

NS is taking a real political gamble here, politically it's winner takes all

Not really, Scotland has voted in the space of 18months in two major constitutional referendums, each time voting to remain in the union in question. That scenario can not now happen, so it is a democratic necessity not a gamble that the Indy question is asked again so Scotland can make the choice. 

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33 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

If they get support in the parliament for that and they want to, then yes. That's how democracy works.

I would imagine they'd put it in their manifesto again of course. Like they've done the past two times they've been elected.

If people are really that much against a new iref, they can just not vote SNP (or e.g. Green, who just voted with the SNP).

I mean if someone is really, really against independence / a new iref goes out and votes SNP, then what kind of prize dumbass are they. 

which is what I think will happen should NO win next time around....The SNP will be a busted flush, people will get fed up of their particular brand of drum beating....that's not to say of course that another political party take over the banner or a new pro-indy party start afresh?

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17 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

If the folk you discuss are unhappy, they can just not vote SNP next time. They voted for today and I thank them greatly

Folk need to accept democracy and move on.

Enough from me on this subject. Democracy has spoken. 

Will the UK prove it is a democracy or not? If not, Scotland must leave.

Up to May and co.

--

You can tell the union is on its last legs when we are down to unionists claiming a parliamentary vote by parties elected under PR is somehow not legit (in Scotland, elsewhere it's fine) and trying to actually block democracy.

Hence me saying 'Day the union died' etc.

I personally think this is all great. When Dave 'agreed' quickly last time, he hurt the Yes camp. He was much wiser than May.

SS i respect your opinion fully,your arguments are always well put,obvious your passion for a independent Scotland. All i can say is my experience of travelling Scotland with work,can be up in that fantastic country for up to 3 weeks at a time,covering the whole of it nearly so encounter a wide range of views. In my opinion there may be not such a strong desire for independence as you would hope,but thats only my opinion from speaking to folk across the areas i have been,so please take that in mind.

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4 minutes ago, skifreak said:

Not really, Scotland has voted in the space of 18months in two major constitutional referendums, each time voting to remain in the union in question. That scenario can not now happen, so it is a democratic necessity not a gamble that the Indy question is asked again so Scotland can make the choice. 

My scenario was NO winning....were you referring to that?....A bit presumptuous if you were :wink:

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10 minutes ago, markyo said:

SS i respect your opinion fully,your arguments are always well put,obvious your passion for a independent Scotland. All i can say is my experience of travelling Scotland with work,can be up in that fantastic country for up to 3 weeks at a time,covering the whole of it nearly so encounter a wide range of views. In my opinion there may be not such a strong desire for independence as you would hope,but thats only my opinion from speaking to folk across the areas i have been,so please take that in mind.

Thanks, but I'll trust polls, surveys and elections. It's the only way we might be able to judge opinion at this instant.

All my friends and family support independence. That's how reliable 'asking around' is.

Last time, polls only had 30% backing indy, yet 45% voter for it in the end.

This is why we have campaigns.

This time polls show a statistical tie to begin with. We will see how that goes over the next two years.

---

A truly historic day in Scottish democracy anyway. 

May needs to sit down and organise the referendum at the time of Scotland's choosing, i.e. what Cameron did. It is her only hope to save the UK.

 

Edited by scottish skier
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18 minutes ago, ajpoolshark said:

which is what I think will happen should NO win next time around....The SNP will be a busted flush, people will get fed up of their particular brand of drum beating....that's not to say of course that another political party take over the banner or a new pro-indy party start afresh?

Yes, that's what was predicted for a No in 2014 (the first bit anyway).

What's your prediction for the Greens?

I think the SNP will get 65% at the next election and the Tories 1%.

Edited by scottish skier
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5 minutes ago, ajpoolshark said:

My scenario was NO winning....were you referring to that?....A bit presumptuous if you were :wink:

I don't really know what point you are trying to make? My point didn't make any prediction of what the result of an IndyRef would be, rather that it shouldn't matter if the expectation was that No would win, because Scotland voted to stay in two unions and one union is saying Scotland must leave the other union. So it's a democratic necessity that the question be re-asked so a democratic choice can be made as to which path Scotland follows.

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Just now, skifreak said:

I don't really know what point you are trying to make? My point didn't make any prediction of what the result of an IndyRef would be, rather that it shouldn't matter if the expectation was that No would win, because Scotland voted to stay in two unions and one union is saying Scotland must leave the other union. So it's a democratic necessity that the question be re-asked so a democratic choice can be made as to which path Scotland follows.

that makes two of us because I didn't understand the point you were making in reply to my earlier post...now you've clarified it somewhat

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