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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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More for Theresa, our would be dictator.

Thanks to wings for sourcing:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/how-the-times-do-change/

Quote

http://archive.is/4x4qL#selection-591.1-621.315

The Strange Case of the Scottish Independence Referendum. Some Elements of Comparison between the Scottish and Catalan Cases

...Twenty years before, Margaret Thatcher had had no such qualms about speaking of Scottish self-determination. In her memoirs, she had noted that“[a]s a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way”.[6] To her, this “right to national self-determination” did not give Scotland the right to more autonomy within the UK in the form of a devolved Parliament (Scotland, she had said, “cannot claim devolution as a right of nationhood inside the Union”[7]), but it did mean that Scotland could unilaterally choose to become independent. Thatcher’s successor, John Major, had also asserted that “no nation could be held irrevocably in a Union against its will”;[8] in other words, Scotland had the right to leave the Union if it wished to do so. The Scottish case is therefore rather unusual in the sense that, at least in the recent past, Scottish nationalists have not needed to convince British Unionist politicians of the legitimacy of Scotland’s right to secede from the UK.

---

Revue Française de Civilisation Britannique, XX-2 | 2015

Le référendum sur l’indépendance écossaise du 18 septembre 2014

We will vote in a referendum at a timing chosen by Holyrood.

May could not have insulted the Scottish nation - nationalist and unionist alike - more by suggesting otherwise.

An amateur out of her depth.

Edited by scottish skier
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And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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11 minutes ago, Summer Sun said:

The debate and vote will resume at 14:20 on Tuesday

Yes, it should be the most momentous day in Scottish politics this year.

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Also worth noting.

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http://archive.is/4x4qL#selection-1199.2-1209.303

The other major reason behind London’s agreement to the holding of a Scottish independence referendum [2014] lies in its belief in what has been termed the “doctrine of the mandate”, a doctrine whereby obtaining a majority in an election gives a party a political and moral mandate to implement any policy that is part of its election programme. This is a belief that all British parties (including the SNP) share and that is arguably at the very heart of the British political system.

I'd not want to challenge the right of the Scottish parliament to hold a new iref at the time of its choosing.

You would basically need to argue Scotland is an English colony to Scottish judges at the Court of Session (or in the Supreme court to Scottish judges if you had managed to persuade the court of session your colony idea had merit for appeal).

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2 hours ago, scottish skier said:

Yes, it should be the most momentous day in Scottish politics this year.

I don't know, the final nail in the coffin for Labour(Scottish branch office) in May will be sweet.

The loss of Glasgow City Council in particular.

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11 minutes ago, Dougal said:

https://fullfact.org/law/can-scotland-legally-hold-another-referendum/

May have already been posted here somewhere but I find this site useful in understanding some of these complex issues.

Seems like a good summary.

This bit I highlight as it's how I've always seen it.

Quote

But if one were held without the UK parliament’s agreement, it may not feel the same political obligation to pass the laws necessary to actually implement the result.

All the 'permission' does is say England/rUK will recognise the result. However, what the rUK thinks doesn't matter ultimately; it is what the rest of the world thinks, particularly Europe.

It would be somewhat 'uncharted territory', but if it came to arguing whether the result represented 'the will of the Scottish people' - which is key for global recognition - then this would need to be done in the Scottish courts. The fact it would need to be done in Scottish courts is the next key element for recognition. There's no dispute under British law because that doesn't exit.

The best bet would be Scottish unionists trying to argue in court that a Yes was not valid / not the freely and fairly expressed will of the people. Any whiff of English MPs doing it (i.e. UK government) and you could guarantee the Yes getting even bigger!

Yet if 2014 and brexit tells us anything, people don't challenge a clearly free and fair referendum. They might try to campaign to have another one though. :)

 

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Because they are independent and know how to run a country properly.

Westminster can't run a bath never mind a country's finances.

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http://archive.is/jsYE7

Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp: Why is Norway still getting much more tax from oil?

...Our research published this week poses the question: If being part of the UK is such an advantage how come Norway, a comparable oil producing nation, only saw a fall in revenues of only about 40 per cent when ours fell by 99 per cent? And more to the point how come small, and independent Norway’s revenues are 411 times larger than the UK’s? Norway generated £17,684 billion from oil and gas in 2015 but the UK Government only generated £43 million in its last published tax year.

 

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4 hours ago, scottish skier said:

Because they are independent and know how to run a country properly.

Westminster can't run a bath never mind a country's finances.

 

Absolutely incredible figures. Why is this not all over the media?

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Saw this on Wings and thought it worth posting in here for posterity on the GERS figures:

Gers was conceived as a political exercise
19 Dec 2006

I MUST be ever-present in Wendy Alexander’s thoughts (December 16) these days, having been mentioned by name no fewer than seven times in the same letter! Let me see if I can return the compliment and in so doing cast some light into Labour’s “black holes”.

Ms Alexander accuses the SNP of traducing civil servants by attacking the basis of the Government Expenditure and Revenue for Scotland (Gers) analysis. Unlike her, I have been a civil servant (ie, a real one, not a special adviser) and know full well the parameters in which they work.

Gers was conceived as a political, not as a statistical, exercise. We know this because the original correspondence from the then Secretary of State, Ian Lang, was leaked some years ago – he wanted it to “undermine the other parties”, saying “this initiative could score against all of them”.

The civil servants involved have several times tried to pull it back from its more blatant political exploitation by Tory and Labour politicians. The economist in charge, Dr Andrew Goudie, has noted that “Gers tells us nothing about the situation under independence”. So why do Ms Alexander and her even less numerate friends misuse it as the basis of their anti-independence attack?

The problems with Gers are twofold and very obvious. It publishes a non-oil headline figure and takes no account of UK borrowing. Thus, it is used by the Tories to talk of subsidies or Labour of black holes. The first is as ludicrous as taking the financial sector out of London finances while the second places the debate in an artificial context. The UK has a budget deficit this year of GBP34bn, a non-oil deficit of GBP45bn, and accumulated debt of GBP500bn.

In Wendy’s looking-glass world, this UK black hole should be immediately filled by swingeing tax rises, or does her brand of logic only apply to Scotland?

Gers is also two years out of date, and merely by adjusting for this year’s oil revenues, which have doubled to more than GBP10bn, and allowing for the UK deficit, the “subsidy” flows in 2007 from north to south. That is before making any other corrections – for example, the clear counting of English-only departmental expenditure as part of the Scottish total.

Wendy should stop claiming that “oil revenues are falling”, since the pre-budget report shows them rising from just more than GBP10bn to almost GBP12bn over the next five years. Nor should she pretend that it is running out – Labour’s internal policy documents suggest more than 30 years of supply.

Of course, there is nothing new about the Labour Party systematically and cynically underestimating Scotland’s oil wealth. The secret papers, recently published from the 1970s, show that this is a long established Labour tradition.

In these papers was the private economic advice that an independent Scotland would be richer than Switzerland. In public, Labour politicians were comparing our economic prospects to those of Bangladesh.

Ms Alexander doesn’t go that far, but she does seem to have great trouble in coping with the notion that Scotland could be a normal independent successful country like our near neighbours, Norway, Ireland and Iceland.

All three have lessons to teach us if we are open-minded enough to learn. One of these lessons is to use the strength of Scotland’s current budget position to improve our competitive advantage and generate growth and revenue for the long term.

They pursue three very different social and taxation models but all three are among the top six economies in the world in terms of wealth per head.

They also happen to be three of a handful of western countries running an absolute budget surplus. That has happened because they are economically successful.

I have used up my seven mentions of Ms Alexander so let me close on this note. In a world of dodgy dossiers on Iraq and loans for Lords, the black hole she should really worry about is the one where Labour credibility used to be.
Alex Salmond, MP, 17 Maiden Street, Peterhead.

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Growing support for Scotland in the EU?

 

"Robert Menasse, speaking yesterday (Tuesday 21 March) in Brussels told the packed chamber that they should not abandon the democratic vote of people in Scotland to remain within the European family of nations or “give in to the nationalists in London”.

Menasse’s speech - a rallying call against nationalist forces - illustrates the growing sympathy for Scotland across the continent in response to the aggressive isolationism and anti-EU sentiment now dominant in the Tory Government in London."

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10606/back-scotland-against-tory-nationalists-london-austrian-author-tells-european

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It's worth commenting on a tangent to @mountain shadow's post above, I'm space saving by not quoting it all. The biggest thing to take from it is the part about £500bn accumulated debt. This letter is dated from December 2006. The U.K. national debt is now £1,800bn so by my admittedly dodgy maths that's an increase of 13% a year. This alone is a huge reason not to stay in the union. The UK government cannot be trusted to run an economy and that's a combination of Labour, LibDems but mostly Tories in control. It's unsustainable and we need out. We also do not need any lectures from any unionist at any point about deficits, government finances or anything else to do with running an economy. You've had your chance, you are failing epically. Under independence our ship may float, it may sink but the union ship IS sinking fast and you're all in deficit denial...oooo wouldn't that make a good hashtag?

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RE the appeal to the European Parliament on behalf of Scotland.

Two points to take away.

1. This is not the first such appeal; and it will not be the last. Contrast Westminster where I'm aware of no such appeals on our behalf outside of our friends in Plaid Cymru. Why are Westminster MPs not threatening to overrule Theresa May to ensure the Scots can freely/fairly choose their future in the UK? Shows you where Scotland's real friends are; and it's not in the [creepy voice] 'precious union' it seems.*

2. It is perfectly within the remit of the people's parliament of Europe - one of the democratic pillars - to agree to no deal whatsoever with the UK trade wise unless Scotland can freely decide on independence / remaining European. Even with say EU observers present / as monitors of the referendum process (instead of the UK EC for example). And that means potentially no deal at all, even sanctions. Could include other countries not trading with the UK as, after all, it is a small market while the EU is a much larger one. Better to stay on side. And it would not matter if the Council was against such a plan; both need to support any trade deal for it to pass. That and of course national + some regional parliaments. In these, SNP are very popular and Tories hated, if simply due to their respective treatments of EU nationals.

---

*Excluding those true friends down south, including those on this forum, who have been arguing for Scotland's freedom to choose in its own time.

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GERS...now I am no economist, but even by my lack of mathematical skills I find the GERS figures fishy:

The reality is that GERS tells us next to nothing about the financial situation of an independent Scotland. But even if we were to take the GERS figures at face value, they still add up to something that smells pretty fishy. According to the GERS figures, Scotland has a deficit of £14.8 billion a year. The equivalent figures for Wales and Northern Ireland allocate deficits of £14.7 billion and £9.16 billion respectively. Yet the entire annual deficit for the whole of the UK is £67 billion. The GER figures would have us believe that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, with a combined 16% of the UK population between them, are responsible for a whopping 58% of the entire UK annual deficit. That figure alone ought to raise suspicions that the methodology of GERS is suspect and invite a critical examination with a sceptical eye. But Unionists don’t want us to do that. They want us to accept Scotland’s supposed £14.8 billion deficit as if it were holy writ.

Full article good read https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

 

  

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23 hours ago, scottish skier said:

RE the appeal to the European Parliament on behalf of Scotland.

Two points to take away.

1. This is not the first such appeal; and it will not be the last. Contrast Westminster where I'm aware of no such appeals on our behalf outside of our friends in Plaid Cymru. Why are Westminster MPs not threatening to overrule Theresa May to ensure the Scots can freely/fairly choose their future in the UK? Shows you where Scotland's real friends are; and it's not in the [creepy voice] 'precious union' it seems.*

2. It is perfectly within the remit of the people's parliament of Europe - one of the democratic pillars - to agree to no deal whatsoever with the UK trade wise unless Scotland can freely decide on independence / remaining European. Even with say EU observers present / as monitors of the referendum process (instead of the UK EC for example). And that means potentially no deal at all, even sanctions. Could include other countries not trading with the UK as, after all, it is a small market while the EU is a much larger one. Better to stay on side. And it would not matter if the Council was against such a plan; both need to support any trade deal for it to pass. That and of course national + some regional parliaments. In these, SNP are very popular and Tories hated, if simply due to their respective treatments of EU nationals.

---

*Excluding those true friends down south, including those on this forum, who have been arguing for Scotland's freedom to choose in its own time.

Related.

Friend of Scotland:

No friend of Scotland:

Quote

Quite obviously.

I could add 'Also gets to decide on the matter' and 'Doesn't get to decide on the matter' respectively too.

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1 hour ago, scottish skier said:

Away and bile yer heid.

 

Aye, I'm sure Nicola will be happy to do that, all Theresa has to do is drop invoking Article 50. Only fair. 

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The Daily Record says Sturgeon and May are to meet tomorrow. Is this a longstanding pre-arranged meeting or Mays last desperate attempt to try and avoid a second indy ref.

If I was Sturgeon I'd tell her to run off back south and stuff her hard Brexit where the sun doesn't shine!

 

 

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She's probably up here to announce Edinburgh City Region Deal - been on the cards for a while after two years of negotiation.  So the meeting would have been in the diary since the autumn statement at least.

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14 minutes ago, nick sussex said:

The Daily Record says Sturgeon and May are to meet tomorrow. Is this a longstanding pre-arranged meeting or Mays last desperate attempt to try and avoid a second indy ref.

If I was Sturgeon I'd tell her to run off back south and stuff her hard Brexit where the sun doesn't shine!

 

 

Any chance of May falling into the Tweed? Sorry, I don't know what came over me!:D

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