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PersianPaladin

Has Feminism Gone Too Far In The West?

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I watched a video by Dr.Warren Farrell that stated some depressing statistics about the state of boys education compared to girls:-

Among other problems, we have women being penalised by the taxman if she chooses to be a stay at home mom. We have child support systems that often discriminate against men, car insurance that discriminates against men, we have selfish behaviour of many mothers that have led to fatherlessness, damage to children in the womb and other child abuse. We have media presentation of fathers as irresponsible and "dead-beats" compared with society's failure to call irresponsible mothers to account. We have a higher male suicide rate along with a lack of protection men have in society due to their perceived invulnerability and worthlessness.

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It's a very tricky issue. There have always been serious issues with sexism against women, and as a society we are being pro-active in targetting most sources of such sexism, and have had a fair amount of success. However there is still some way to go, particularly as we've been quite inconsistent about it (e.g. making comments like Andy Gray did recently is often seen as anti-social, but so is suggesting that women shouldn't be coerced into taking their husbands' last names when they get married). Feminism was originally about addressing this and is thus, at its roots, a very well-intentioned movement, but see side-effects below.

As for sexism against men, it has always existed but until recently it paled by comparison with sexism against women, and women were rarely in positions of sufficient power to be able to take advantage of it anyway. The problem today is that sexism against men is on the rise, and women's liberation has, in some cases, given them the power to take advantage of it. The additional problem is that the prevailing attitude to this is "that's life". For instance if people are jealous of a man's friendship with a woman, and thus spread rumours that he is trying to abuse her, the potential loss of a friendship can end up among the least of his worries, as most people will automatically assume that he's guilty.

The solution is simple: an approach of judging people according to their own individual merits. For example, if we have a rule that in cases of physical abuse, the person who is stronger is judged more harshly, it would be more reasonable than automatically judging the man more harshly (for while men are stronger than women on average, not all men are stronger than all women).

Re. PP's points, the car insurance issue is set to change:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/business-12606610

I would be in favour of this if insurance costs were to meet in the middle but I think it's more likely that men's insurance won't change much while young women's will rise to the same level.

Re. some of PP's other points, we do get mothers who behave unreasonably and get men held responsible for it, though we also have to be careful to see both sides of the argument (e.g. it isn't selfish for a mother to divorce a genuinely abusive husband IMHO, for various reasons).

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Add to that the child protection agency that makes no attempt to find out how much Fathers actually can pay. Fathers that can't get custody of children or even access even though they can provide a better life style.

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Add to that the child protection agency that makes no attempt to find out how much Fathers actually can pay. Fathers that can't get custody of children or even access even though they can provide a better life style.

Absent fathers really are damaging to a childs' development.

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Instead of bemoaning and begrudging progress from women, how about celebrating the inequalities which have been overcome, so that we may all live in a more equal society. If any of you chaps think there are inequalities in the system which treats you unfairly, identify them and campaign for change, that's what feminism did - it's far more positive and more likely to initiate any change you'd like to see.

So far I haven't seen one issue raised that I would consider a gender issue, and whilst they continue to be fought/discussed in a gender specific fashion, I can't see there will be any winners.

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Absent fathers really are damaging to a childs' development.

Well when the Mother ups and leaves taking the kids with them and then refuses access it's not the fathers fault.

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Well when the Mother ups and leaves taking the kids with them and then refuses access it's not the fathers fault.

I agree.

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Well when the Mother ups and leaves taking the kids with them and then refuses access it's not the fathers fault.

And when Dad does the same? Or Dad clears off and leaves Mum with the kids? Or any other permeation?

Give me one good reason why the welfare of children should be a gender issue? The welfare of children is the responsibility of us all.

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And when Dad does the same? Or Dad clears off and leaves Mum with the kids? Or any other permeation?

Give me one good reason why the welfare of children should be a gender issue? The welfare of children is the responsibility of us all.

And the above post shows the problem. Anyway I got to go out so think why what you posted is one sided in attitude.

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And the above post shows the problem. Anyway I got to go out so think why what you posted is one sided in attitude.

No Pit, you explain.

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I think PIT's response to Jethro is somewhat harsh/presumptious, but I think Jethro did miss the point of what is being said. What's being referred to to is the situations where there is a large double standard between how men are treated and how women are treated, purely based on gender (often on the basis of the "average" case, which fails to take account of the variation either side of the average). Their example refers to the way mothers have more rights over custody of their children than fathers (ironically this stems from discrimination against both sexes- the perception of men as being abusers but also of the mother's place as being in the home, to quote just two examples- but men are the losers in that particular instance).

One example is the way if a woman feels she's being abused by a man and tries to get help, people take her seriously, whereas if a man feels he's being abused by a woman and tries to get help, responses vary from hysterical laughter to "take it like a man" to "you must have done something to deserve it, and therefore you're the one abusing her even though I have no evidence for this position other than that she's female and you're male". I'm aware that, though it is a contentious issue, there is substantial evidence out there suggesting that male-on-female abuse occurs, on average, at higher rates and with greater seriousness, but it doesn't mean that severe female-on-male abuse doesn't exist or is a laughing matter.

This often gets construed as a problem with the women's liberation movement but I don't see it that way, indeed there probably aren't many men out there who support women's liberation more strongly than I do. I see it as a problem with there being so much focus on traditionally disadvantaged groups that abuse and discrimination against individuals within traditionally advantaged groups isn't taken seriously. Again, if more discrimination occurs against women then against men (which I think is probably still true, though the gap is narrowing from both sides) then it merely means that the former should represent a proportionately larger number of cases where we address discrimination, not that the latter should be ignored.

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No I haven't missed the point.

Child welfare is not a gender issue, children have two parents and both should be held equally responsible.

Pit raised a specific instance of inequality, I suggested others biased in the opposite direction, none of them are right, all are equally wrong and both genders are equally capable of committing them - hence it is not a basis for a gender specific discussion.

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No I haven't missed the point.

Child welfare is not a gender issue, children have two parents and both should be held equally responsible.

Pit raised a specific instance of inequality, I suggested others biased in the opposite direction, none of them are right, all are equally wrong and both genders are equally capable of committing them - hence it is not a basis for a gender specific discussion.

There is a common view that when parents fight over custody of children, judges tend to side disproportionately with the mother rather than the father, primarily for gender-related reasons (PIT hasn't specifically cited this, which rather weakens his line of argument, but I'm guessing that this is what his posts relate to). I can't be sure of the accuracy of it as it is hard to find sources that are sure to be non-biased. However, if that "should" (in bold) in reality does translate to "aren't, because the mother tends to get the benefit over the father" then it does become an issue relevant to gender even though it shouldn't be.

You say that no-one has cited gender-related issues, but I'm pretty sure the "if a man is accused of abusing a woman he's assumed guilty, whereas if a woman is accused of abusing a man, at best everybody laughs and at worst it's assumed that the man is the abuser" is a stark example of a gender issue at men's expense, just as the "a lot of the ills of society are blamed on working mothers and never on working fathers" is an example of a gender issue that comes at women's expense.

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i know this isnt essentially about custody of children..but here is an example of how the system is skewed in favour of mothers.. a work collegue of mine was left holding the baby literally..or three kids when his wife ran off with another man...7 years later she returned after having had minmal contact with her children..she was now single and proceeded to fight for custody of the children..which she then won.. then he was restricted to seeing his children to 2 weekends a month the judge decided the children needed time to rebond with the mother and would benefit from having a mother in thier lives...no consideration that she had abandon them in the first place or the fact he had looked after them on his own for 7 years..needless to say he was heartbroken.

it seems that men can be turfed out of their homes onto the streets and left destitute without a by or leave yet women cant.

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Hmmm, feminism means that women are expected to go collect sick children, sort out childcare etc, etc, etc. Mr Loo admits that there are jobs that are best done by me and best done by him. At the end of the day it's a partnership and at work, we learn to use our different talents in a team to deliver the best results so what's wrong with some "bloke" jobs and some "women" jobs (in the home or otherwise) so long as it's not one sided I'm all for it

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it seems that men can be turfed out of their homes onto the streets and left destitute without a by or leave yet women cant.

It is not of course as straighforward as this, however, I agree with more justice for fathers. My best mates brother was married young (18) due to his girlfriend getting pregnant (we now suspect intenionally...). He worked part time to support them and continue his studies at the same time (accountancy). He worked all sorts of hours, always tired/did not go out much with friends but wanted the best for them. They got married - seemed good. He graduated and started earning reasonably. His wife begged and begged for a bigger house as she was pregnant again. They got the bigger house due to him doing overtime etc. Then, one day she informs him she's leaving him and wants him to move out. She wants full custody of the kids and will fight him for it. Now in the courts with him paying for the big house and his own flat. Turns out she's been having an affair for years and her new bloke has moved into the big house.

While he has been gullible as he was young (there must have been signs - his bro did have concerns about her), he is now getting stuffed by her due to the judical preference for 'mum is best for kids'. He has limited access to his kids and it is costing him a fortune to pay for that and for his ex to go on holiday with her new bloke + the kids.

System does have major failings in that women are given custody preference over men.

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Men go to work and Women stay at home. if either disagree's then the option of having a sex change is there on the table. Striving for equality was a fair enough try at making it work, but lets face it just like Multiculturalism it ended up as a complete failure. Every other society and civilisation we've ever had in this world has gone along just fine without this consistent push to try and pigeonhole everyone into one subgenre just to save someone else's 'political corectness.'

Lets go back to how it was 200 years ago and be done with it.

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I've been reading the feed all evening and we are lucky to live in a society where we can have this debate. Yes there is positive discrimination in the law which favours mothers over fathers, conversely in politics and the boardroom the "old boys network" is still alive and kicking .......what we should be focusing is the sad fact that there will never be true equality within society whether it be due to gender or race

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Men go to work and Women stay at home. if either disagree's then the option of having a sex change is there on the table. Striving for equality was a fair enough try at making it work, but lets face it just like Multiculturalism it ended up as a complete failure. Every other society and civilisation we've ever had in this world has gone along just fine without this consistent push to try and pigeonhole everyone into one subgenre just to save someone else's 'political corectness.'

Lets go back to how it was 200 years ago and be done with it.

Is it April Fools Day?

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Is it April Fools Day?

I hope so, quite frankly it's offensive

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Hmmm, feminism means that women are expected to go collect sick children, sort out childcare etc, etc, etc. Mr Loo admits that there are jobs that are best done by me and best done by him. At the end of the day it's a partnership and at work, we learn to use our different talents in a team to deliver the best results so what's wrong with some "bloke" jobs and some "women" jobs (in the home or otherwise) so long as it's not one sided I'm all for it

I don't think that's the issue at all- I know there are people out there who want to see "enforced equality" but I, for one, believe strongly in people being allowed to make the most of their own innate strengths and weaknesses, and if one gender, on average, has slightly more of one strength than another then so be it.

The "discrimination"-related issues arise when people are judged on the basis of gender rather than their own individual strengths and weaknesses- the "one blanket rule for men and another for women" sort of thing. For example I have a strong loving and caring side to my personality, of the sort that many women express freely without a problem, but I know that, as a man, I have to express extreme care in expressing it because people might misinterpret it on the grounds that "men crave sex so if a man shows love and care for someone it means he wants sex with him/her". That is one area where, due to sex discrimination, my gender prevents me from utilising one of my innate strengths fully. Similarly, many women who excel at things that are traditionally male-dominated can feel similarly pressured into suppressing those strengths and trying to practice at more "feminine" traits.

Perhaps part of the problem lies in the title of the thread. I don't see this as a case of "feminism" going to far- rather society and the law addressing sex discrimination very inconsistently- and quite often "feminism" is just a scapegoat. I think the same also holds true for many other forms of discrimination.

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The facts are that in the West - there is discrimination against men in the sense that they are disposable, they are socialised to do the most dangerous jobs with the highest risk (while women choose not to), they are discriminated against in the case of child-care, they underachieve at school and are stigmatized for it, etc. These are just some of the problems. Oh, and women moan about a pay-gap when in reality that only exists because of the way corporate-capitalism is structured as well as the less ambition or risk that women generally undertake.

For much of the world, however, yes...there is a lot of discrimination against women which needs to be put right.

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The facts are that in the West - there is discrimination against men in the sense that they are disposable, they are socialised to do the most dangerous jobs with the highest risk (while women choose not to), they are discriminated against in the case of child-care, they underachieve at school and are stigmatized for it, etc. These are just some of the problems. Oh, and women moan about a pay-gap when in reality that only exists because of the way corporate-capitalism is structured as well as the less ambition or risk that women generally undertake.

For much of the world, however, yes...there is a lot of discrimination against women which needs to be put right.

I don't think this is fair comment women in the West are encouraged to take up dangerous occupations such as working on the front line in war zones and in the same way men are encouraged to take a more domestic role at home . The problem is the pre conceived notion of what is a man's job and what is a womans job.

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God this thread makes depressing reading. We are in the 21st century, aren't we?

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It is not of course as straighforward as this, however, I agree with more justice for fathers. My best mates brother was married young (18) due to his girlfriend getting pregnant (we now suspect intenionally...). He worked part time to support them and continue his studies at the same time (accountancy). He worked all sorts of hours, always tired/did not go out much with friends but wanted the best for them. They got married - seemed good. He graduated and started earning reasonably. His wife begged and begged for a bigger house as she was pregnant again. They got the bigger house due to him doing overtime etc. Then, one day she informs him she's leaving him and wants him to move out. She wants full custody of the kids and will fight him for it. Now in the courts with him paying for the big house and his own flat. Turns out she's been having an affair for years and her new bloke has moved into the big house.

While he has been gullible as he was young (there must have been signs - his bro did have concerns about her), he is now getting stuffed by her due to the judical preference for 'mum is best for kids'. He has limited access to his kids and it is costing him a fortune to pay for that and for his ex to go on holiday with her new bloke + the kids.

System does have major failings in that women are given custody preference over men.

There are so many cases like this.

I have even heard of cases where it transpired that the children were not even the' husbands but those of the man she was having and affair with, and he ends up moving into the house. Despite this, the courts still insist that the ex-husband continues to pay child maintenance.

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