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The Middle East...where Are Events Taking Us?


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Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    The question is what to do now, if anything. We should have intervened in Syria, Blair was one of the few voices who advocated this, and we still should step up logistic support but it's now probably too late.

     

    That looks like going to war to me. Perhaps you didn't mean to say that way unless you meant providing arms or enforcing a no fly zone aka going to war. We did actually intervene by removing chemical weapons. However we got nasties like Barrel bombs instead.

     

    Going back to arms if we could stop the arms trade that would be a big help to making life difficult for extremists. 

     

    One big problem of fighting wars in the modern day is that we're not good at propaganda. As soon as the British or Americans got it wrong it was all over the news yet if the extremists deliberately targeted civilians very little was said. 

     

    The coverage changed in Libya where our backed rebels and aircraft had magic bullets and missiles that missed civilians. End result the British public were happier.

    Edited by The PIT
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    There is no other description for what is happening other than war crime and genocide.   Israel is technically the occupying force on Gaza and as such is duty bound to protect civilians.   Complet

    The scenes in Gaza look like the aftermath of a nuclear bomb, utter devastation. The Israelis telling people to go back to their homes in northern Gaza as its "safe", what are they supposed to go back

    Reported on the BBC too... An air strike on an army camp has killed three soldiers, the Syrian government says, blaming the US-led coalition for the attack. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    That looks like going to war to me. Perhaps you didn't mean to say that way unless you meant providing arms. We did actually intervene by removing chemical weapons. However we got nasties like Barrel bombs instead.

     

    By intervene I meant the same as the ex US Ambassador to Syria Robert Ford. We should have supplied the genuine opposition with more money, food and arms. This is precisely what the Islamist extremists did and the genuine opposition defected in droves. It would also have helped somewhat to alleviate the starving population.

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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    By intervene I meant the same as the ex US Ambassador to Syria Robert Ford. We should have supplied the genuine opposition with more money, food and arms. This is precisely what the Islamist extremists did and the genuine opposition defected in droves. It would also have helped somewhat to alleviate the starving population.

    Problem with that approach the extremists then use them against the west when we realise there' are not good guys. If we had supplied arms we would have supplied the ISIS as well. One thing what's not getting reported is that they are three wars in Syria The Government forces v Rebels and Rebels v More extreme Rebels. Eventually what may happen is the Government and less militant Rebels will join forces against groups like ISIS which has probably already happened at times.

    I don't think supplying arms is the answer either as you would only start a arms race. So Iran and Russia would supply the Syrian army Hezbolla with more arms and we're back to the old cold war in alls it glory.

    No easy answer although clearly I'm on the side on prevention of arms being supplied to any side from any party. This won't happen as money talks.

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  • Location: Alresford, Near Colchester, Essex
  • Weather Preferences: As long as it's not North Sea muck, I'll cope.
  • Location: Alresford, Near Colchester, Essex

    All I'll say is thank God we didn't get involved in Syria, although I'd have been happy enough (and still would be) if someone surgically took out Assad and his heinous brother. Although I'm no fan of Putin, I'm glad he made things very difficult for Cameron and Obama.

     

    We may have had a very small window of opportunity to get involved before islamists filled the power vacuum, but that would have been so hard to judge, without the power of foresight and getting involved in another protracted war, where we'd almost certainly leave with our tail between our legs again, was just not worth the risk imho.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Problem with that approach the extremists then use them against the west when we realise there' are not good guys. If we had supplied arms we would have supplied the ISIS as well. One thing what's not getting reported is that they are three wars in Syria The Government forces v Rebels and Rebels v More extreme Rebels. Eventually what may happen is the Government and less militant Rebels will join forces against groups like ISIS which has probably already happened at times.

    I don't think supplying arms is the answer either as you would only start a arms race. So Iran and Russia would supply the Syrian army Hezbolla with more arms and we're back to the old cold war in alls it glory.

    No easy answer although clearly I'm on the side on prevention of arms being supplied to any side from any party. This won't happen as money talks.

     

    it's been extensively reported. That's exactly what I've been talking about. There has been a three way war going on for some time. I don't see how you can start an arms race when one already exists but you can help to balance the odds by supplying the 'good' guys.The Ismalists have plenty of weaponry and Iran and Russia make sure Assad doesn't go short. And it's not just about money. Syria is strategically important to Russia.

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  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    Saddams crimes against the KuKuwait were unspeakable. His staying in power to retain stability was not an option.

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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Saddams crimes against the KuKuwait were unspeakable. His staying in power to retain stability was not an option.

    More people have died since because our action and whole lot more are going to die very shortly. It's okay to have a moral crusade but you've got to weigh up the long term costs. All we have done is changed one war lord to loads of smaller war lords who have done also committed crimes.

    Knocker I fail to see how increasing the number of weapons available will solve the problem. If the rebels win it won't make a better country. It will just a unstable lawless country.

    Latest news indicate that Obama maybe having 2nd thoughts about not supporting the Iraqi Government.

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    Saddams crimes against the KuKuwait were unspeakable. His staying in power to retain stability was not an option.

    There is no getting away from the fact that he was a bad man but as far as the west was concerned he was mostly keeping the insurgents and extremists in check - he had his knuckles rapped over Kuwait and apart from a little banter about WMD's which it turned out did not exist there was no justifiable reason for Messrs Bush and Blair to set about this second escapade which as much as anything left a power vacuum in the region with people meeting untimely deaths just as much as they did in Sadam's day, the country is reverting to inter religious civil war and the fanatics are having a field day.

     

    We started off with the intention of overthrowing a tyrant but now the tyrant had grown to be hydra headed and out of control with many more people suffering as a result.

     

    All because one egoist felt he wished to finish off what he felt his father should have done and the other wishing to cover himself in glory by re-visiting the Crusades - they will both go down in history but not in the way they intended.

     

    We will not always agree with the way different governments govern their peoples but we have to be pragmatic about it - in this case the words frying pan and fire immediately spring to mind and this should serve as a warning for any others with holier than thou attitudes who think they can overturn cultures, which if we face it was as much to do with satisfying over inflated egos as helping the suffering on the ground.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Saddams crimes against the KuKuwait were unspeakable. His staying in power to retain stability was not an option.

     

    Don't for forget the genocide using chemical weapons against the Kurds. Oh and the odd million or so who died in the Iraq-Iran War. Oh and the destruction of the Marsh Arabs.

    There is no getting away from the fact that he was a bad man but as far as the west was concerned he was mostly keeping the insurgents and extremists in check - he had his knuckles rapped over Kuwait and apart from a little banter about WMD's which it turned out did not exist there was no justifiable reason for Messrs Bush and Blair to set about this second escapade which as much as anything left a power vacuum in the region with people meeting untimely deaths just as much as they did in Sadam's day, the country is reverting to inter religious civil war and the fanatics are having a field day.

     

    We started off with the intention of overthrowing a tyrant but now the tyrant had grown to be hydra headed and out of control with many more people suffering as a result.

     

    All because one egoist felt he wished to finish off what he felt his father should have done and the other wishing to cover himself in glory by re-visiting the Crusades - they will both go down in history but not in the way they intended.

     

    We will not always agree with the way different governments govern their peoples but we have to be pragmatic about it - in this case the words frying pan and fire immediately spring to mind and this should serve as a warning for any others with holier than thou attitudes who think they can overturn cultures, which if we face it was as much to do with satisfying over inflated egos as helping the suffering on the ground.

     

    His father couldn't because the mandate was to stop at the border. Mores the pity it might have saved many lives. Actually if you read the last UN inspectors report of 1998 before they were kicked out WMDs did exist then. After all he used chemical weapons against the Kurds..

    Edited by knocker
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    Posted
  • Location: Chevening Kent
  • Location: Chevening Kent

    Saddams crimes against the KuKuwait were unspeakable. His staying in power to retain stability was not an option.

    I posed the question simply because we certainly don't have stability now, and may have opened a can of worms with huge consequences. Whatever the war in Iraq or the conflict in Afganistan was suppose to achieve it has clearly back fired. I am no fan of Saddam but I wonder as the old saying goes 'keep your friends close and your enemies even closer' might have been the better option.

     

    Again I am no fan of Putin either but I credit him with a bit of sense on the middle east and maybe its time for there to be a common path against what is actually a evil against both east and west?

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    We encourage the Iran Iraq war and supplied weapons in the hope that he would topple the Ayatollah. So that blood is on the west hands as well. This also involved trying blame Iran for the gas attack on the kurds. The west also provided intelligence so Saddam could carry out gas attacks on Iran positions.  So Saddam had his allies in the West.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Much the same as Assad and Iran does in the east. As I mentioned in an earlier post if you can get your head around the evolving (bad word) history of the ME since 1948 your a better man than I am.

     

    One other recent thing puzzles me. Where has the Iraq air force been during all this? They have overwhelming air supremacy.

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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    We disbanded it when disbanded the armed forces. A lot went over in Syria who kept the aircraft. I don't they have much of an air force and the latest air craft have only just started arriving in time to fall into rebel hands.

    A good article on how it all started going wrong big style http://consortiumnews.com/2014/06/11/blaming-obama-for-iraqs-chaos/

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    Don't for forget the genocide using chemical weapons against the Kurds. Oh and the odd million or so who died in the Iraq-Iran War. Oh and the destruction of the Marsh Arabs. His father couldn't because the mandate was to stop at the border. Mores the pity it might have saved many lives. Actually if you read the last UN inspectors report of 1998 before they were kicked out WMDs did exist then. After all he used chemical weapons against the Kurds..

    Yes, we know all this Knocker but two wrongs don't make a right and the last Iraq war was not justified and as a consequences many more people are getting killed and suffering with virtually the whole region destabilised.Bush and Blair were taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut with very little finesse about it - the west may well have won the war but they lost the battle for hearts and minds
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    I disagree. Everyone seems to be concentrating on the last Iraq War, with the clarity of vision that usually accompanies hindsight instead of the problem that is at the root of all this. That is the appalling record of Nouri al-Maliki,and his Shia dominated government. Thus at some point a Sunni backlash was inevitable.

     

    So now militants of the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham  are apparently voweing to continue their march to the capital and on to the twin Shia holy cities of Karbala and Najaf in their drive to create a new Sunni state spanning two countries on the embers of the old colonial map of the Middle East.

     

    Also the collapse of Iraq’s million-strong army, why was this I wonder, has also created an opportunity for the Kurds, whose well-trained peshmerga force of 200,000 could be more than a match for Isis, which has, at most, only several thousand fighters in Iraq.

     

    I mean how is it logistically possible for so few fighters to attempt to take over a country the size of Iraq?

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    Posted
  • Location: Napton on the Hill Warwickshire 500ft
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and heatwave
  • Location: Napton on the Hill Warwickshire 500ft

     

    One other recent thing puzzles me. Where has the Iraq air force been during all this? They have overwhelming air supremacy.

     

    Out bombing

     

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/12/us-iraq-security-response-idUSKBN0EN1F320140612

     

    http://www.worldbulletin.net/haber/138767/iraq-air-force-bombs-militant-positions-in-mosul

    Edited by stewfox
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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    I disagree. Everyone seems to be concentrating on the last Iraq War, with the clarity of vision that usually accompanies hindsight instead of the problem that is at the root of all this. That is the appalling record of Nouri al-Maliki,and his Shia dominated government. Thus at some point a Sunni backlash was inevitable.

     

    So now militants of the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham  are apparently voweing to continue their march to the capital and on to the twin Shia holy cities of Karbala and Najaf in their drive to create a new Sunni state spanning two countries on the embers of the old colonial map of the Middle East.

     

    Also the collapse of Iraq’s million-strong army, why was this I wonder, has also created an opportunity for the Kurds, whose well-trained peshmerga force of 200,000 could be more than a match for Isis, which has, at most, only several thousand fighters in Iraq.

     

    I mean how is it logistically possible for so few fighters to attempt to take over a country the size of Iraq?

     

    Yup, another step in the Sunni-Shia war and manufactured countries splitting down regional lines based largely on religion.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    The last wars are relevant to the conversation as we shouldn't be making the same mistakes again. Go ho hug fly the flag moral crusade actions only repeat those mistakes. Justifying last wars on moral grounds are rightly pointed as flawed as west was involved in supporting those actions or supplying the means that those actions could take place.

    As ISIs head towards Baghdad a blood bath looms for the Shia population things aren't good.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

     

    As ISIs head towards Baghdad a blood bath looms for the Shia population things aren't good.

     

    I can't see Iran standing aside and letting that happen

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    Posted
  • Location: ILCHESTER
  • Location: ILCHESTER

    It's a bit of a mystery who is supplying ISIS with arms and money. They don;t appear to be short of either and it can't be the usual culprits.If it was just iraq one would suspect Iran and Russia but that makes no sense in syria,

    The are clearing out the banks of every area they capture, so that answers the money question - as for the arms.... well if you have the former, the queue to supply the latter will never be a short one.

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  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    The are clearing out the banks of every area they capture, so that answers the money question - as for the arms.... well if you have the former, the queue to supply the latter will never be a short one.

     

    They had money and arms prior to this.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    The last wars are relevant to the conversation as we shouldn't be making the same mistakes again. Go ho hug fly the flag moral crusade actions only repeat those mistakes. Justifying last wars on moral grounds are rightly pointed as flawed as west was involved in supporting those actions or supplying the means that those actions could take place.

    As ISIs head towards Baghdad a blood bath looms for the Shia population things aren't good.

     

    In regard to making the same mistakes again a study of Arab against Arab conflicts, both external and internal, from 1948 makes illuminating reading. But it does certainly apply to Afghanistan starting with the 1839-42 fiasco. Even the Soviets joined in.

    Edited by knocker
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  • Location: ILCHESTER
  • Location: ILCHESTER

    They had money and arms prior to this.

    Indeed, but now they have even more mula and every new area they take means the pot will only grow.

     

    This is one massive mess, which in truth the west for all it's rhetoric, is effectively powerless to stop.  Many, including myself were very fearful of this kind of thing, after it was decided we were going back in for Iraq par deux in 2003. In the rush to topple Saddam, no one stopped to think what might follow his demise and I suspect the exact same kind of problems will emerge in Afghan...only a good deal quicker.

    Edited by shedhead
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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    What the western media needs to do to now is highlight the cruelty of ISIS this should put young potential jihadists off hopefully. We are also got to be very careful over the ones that come back after fighting there.

    Expect a mass exodus of Shia's in the next few days from Baghdad and a massacre of those who get trapped or how are left behind.

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