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The Middle East...where Are Events Taking Us?


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Posted
  • Location: west croydon (near lombard)
  • Location: west croydon (near lombard)

    http://www.debka.com/article/23206/Reported-Syrian-gas-attack-killing-hundreds-after-first-US-trained-rebel-incursion-from-Jordan

     

    reading this is looks like more is going on there than we are told

     

    also reading the last sentence shows how dangerous this situation is.

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    There is no other description for what is happening other than war crime and genocide.   Israel is technically the occupying force on Gaza and as such is duty bound to protect civilians.   Complet

    The scenes in Gaza look like the aftermath of a nuclear bomb, utter devastation. The Israelis telling people to go back to their homes in northern Gaza as its "safe", what are they supposed to go back

    Reported on the BBC too... An air strike on an army camp has killed three soldiers, the Syrian government says, blaming the US-led coalition for the attack. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    I don't agree with micro-managing a country (imperialism in that sense is very costly) however i think that if the majority of a country supports a secular democracy then the minority opposing have little choice but to accept it. In that same sense i think that since the majority of the UN support secular democracies then as one location on the larger earth then the west has the right to act as the police force of the world amongst decedent nations.  

     

    But many Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia hate the Muslim Brotherhood.

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  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    But many Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia hate the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Ruled by royals. Plus not all muslims will have the same views.In the long term iran, iraq and potentially azerbijan are the biggest dangers in terms of what i believe will become a larger sunni-shia conflict. This block must liberalize or in decades to come it will destroy itself. Edited by summer blizzard
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    I don't agree with micro-managing a country (imperialism in that sense is very costly) however i think that if the majority of a country supports a secular democracy then the minority opposing have little choice but to accept it. In that same sense i think that since the majority of the UN support secular democracies then as one location on the larger earth then the west has the right to act as the police force of the world amongst decedent nations.  

    I agree that there should be a 'world police force' properly organised so that where necessary they can take action against repressive regimes but we do not have this at the moment - I do not consider that the US, just because it is the biggest kid on the block, getting a sanction from the UN to take action is necessarily the right way forward and in fact such actions are widely resented across the world.

     

    It usually ends up with them, although they may have a coalition, being perceived as the head honcho in respect of any action taken and really it amounts to a vigilante action and the world sees it as that, so as a result no 'brownie' points are gained and many view it as an intrusion into the domestic affairs of another rarely achieving the desired result.

     

    As horrific as the images of kids in extreme distress allegedly through being poisoned, this is not a time for knee jerk reactions for such will cause even more damage in the long run.

     

    If we are to have a such a 'police force' in Syria then it should not be just the west who are involved in the decision making and implementation of any action taken but a clear majority of the UN, including other Islamic states.

     

    Taking it to the ultimate and say that Assad is toppled, who is going take his place? - his removal from the scene will create a power vacuum and there is no telling as to which faction would step in to fill this and we cannot count on all the opposition as being our friends - indeed the inter-fighting would be likely to last for some time as it did in Iraq.

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  • Location: Home - Bexley, London/Kent border. Work - Cannon Street, C London
  • Location: Home - Bexley, London/Kent border. Work - Cannon Street, C London

    Your idea sounds great but it is very idealistic.To leave countries to themselves simply results in the most well armed faction winning. It of course also assumes that the west has no right to push it's views on other places which i very much disagree with. Western civilization may not be perfect but i'm more than happy for its continued rule and pushing democracy on other nations.

     

    Egypt does have some things on its side. It's been pretty western friendly, it's a Sunni Muslim country (perhaps controversial but i put most of the blame for the Sunni-Shia conflicts on the Shia led in large part by Iran - most north African countries and Indonesia have always been much more open and friendly even with sharia law) and it's got a population of 80 million which puts it in good stead in terms of becoming a large economy (infact it's a "next 11" economy.

     

    My heart agrees with you, but my head vehemently disagrees. The more we interfere with foreign countries the more we become a target ourselves for attack and furthermore, stand not for democracy and liberalisation but for oppression. What we must realise is the all important saying - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. What we perceive to be freedom and democracy, others consider the route to tyranny and anarchy.

     

    Some people value freedom of expression and a capitalist approach to things - others don't. Some people value a religious led government with religious principles enshrined in law - others don't. Some people believe that promoting a sterdy, 'normal' family lifestyle is the way to ensure a stable and comfortable society - others consider it too restrictive and oppressive for women in particular (let's not get started on LGTB rights beyond that).

     

    Reading your post SummerBlizzard one could interpret the advocating of oppression and intolerance, but towards a liberal standpoint. A concern I have which I have been commenting on in other threads is that I believe we are tip-toeing slowly towards a liberal bigotry and oppression - a dichotomy you might think, but  consider our freedom of speech and expression - unless we accord with the current 'PC' mode of thinking, we are branded bigots, intolerant, disciplined or even expelled from the work place, or even given criminal records. The telling of offensive jokes, even those directed towards mocking taboos, is now considered criminal in some instances. You cannot have religious views which are considered extreme, you cannot have conservative views without being branded a derogatory term like 'Daily Mail reader' or 'bigot' or 'racist' or 'xenophobe' or 'homophobe', etc etc etc. This equally extends to our rights to hold and participate in controversial and 'offensive' debates, something which currently is more acceptable FROM a religious standpoint, but if AT religious standpoints then no no no!!!

     

    In my view, our own western style civilisation is going through (for me at times worrying) shifts in unprecedented waters. Yes I greatly value our society, our broadly liberal approaches to most issues and our abilities to express ourselves and not be shot/arrested for being gay, or being butchered or imprisoned as a 'betrothed' woman for being perceived to have eyes for another man, or being stoned for insulting the national religion. But its not perfect and does not suit all. 

     

    In my view, to suggest that any person's or society's views should be forced (whether liberal, communist, fascist, conservative, etc) on another is the foundations of oppression and dictatorship. Whether or not we encourage migrants to conform to local customs or similar when they arrive in my view is another issue entirely as that is about embracing and encouraging cohesion for the benefit of all concerned. But on a macro level, in my view, should be discouraged at all costs. 

    Edited by Harry
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    Posted
  • Location: Devizes Wiltshire
  • Location: Devizes Wiltshire

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/20/egypts-coptic-christians-face-unprecedented-repris/

     

     

    This is why i fully back the Egyptian army.

     

    As for Syria the rebels are pretty much beet... It would benefit them to know ends, To kill some of their own so the UN reacts....

    If the Syrian army was going to use chemical weapons... Their would of a few months.. Not now the rebels our on the run and almost beet.

    Edited by lfcdude
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    Posted
  • Location: Home - Bexley, London/Kent border. Work - Cannon Street, C London
  • Location: Home - Bexley, London/Kent border. Work - Cannon Street, C London

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/20/egypts-coptic-christians-face-unprecedented-repris/

     

     

    This is why i fully back the Egyptian army.

     

    As for Syria the rebels are pretty much beet... It would benefit them to know ends, To kill some of their own so the UN reacts....

    If the Syrian army was going to use chemical weapons... Their would of a few months.. Not now the rebels our on the run and almost beet.

     

    Doesn't strike me as the most balanced of reports there. What about all the Muslims and other religious groups who are being harrassed, abused and in some cases slain because of their support of the Army?

     

    It is no secret that minorities and non-Muslims are segregated and mistreated in the Arab world - that, if the point you are directing to, I have some agreement with. But unlike many conflicts in the Arab world, this one is not predicated on the basis of religion....yet!!! Trash like this however only serves to make it so, which will escalate matters beyond a political issue! It strikes me as being nothing more than pro-Christian propaganda ridden trite to stir up Islamophobia, of the ilk I've come to expect from a few branches of the US media!!

    Edited by Harry
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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    My heart agrees with you, but my head vehemently disagrees. The more we interfere with foreign countries the more we become a target ourselves for attack furthermore, stand not for democracy and liberalisation but for oppression. What we must realise is the all important saying - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. What we perceive to be freedom and democracy, others consider the route to tyranny and anarchy.

     

    Some people value freedom of expression and a capitalist approach to things - others don't. Some people value a religious led government with religious principles enshrined in law - others don't. Some people believe that promoting a sterdy, 'normal' family lifestyle is the way to ensure a stable and comfortable society - others consider it too restrictive and oppressive for women in particular (let's not get started on LGTB rights beyond that).

     

    Reading your post SummerBlizzard one could interpret the advocating of oppression and intolerance, but towards a liberal standpoint. A concern I have which I have been commenting on in other threads is that I believe we are tip-toeing slowly towards a liberal bigotry and oppression - a dichotomy you might think, but  consider our freedom of speech and expression - unless we accord with the current 'PC' mode of thinking, we are branded bigots, intolerant, disciplined or even expelled from the work place, or even given criminal records. The telling of offensive jokes, even those directed towards mocking taboos, is now considered criminal in some instances. You cannot have religious views which are considered extreme, you cannot have conservative views without being branded a derogatory term like 'Daily Mail reader' or 'bigot' or 'racist' or 'xenophobe' or 'homophobe', etc etc etc. This equally extends to our rights to hold and participate in controversial and 'offensive' debates, something which currently is more acceptable FROM a religious standpoint, but if AT religious standpoints then no no no!!!

     

    In my view, our own western style civilisation is going through (for me at times worrying) shifts in unprecedented waters. Yes I greatly value our society, our broadly liberal approaches to most issues and our abilities to express ourselves and not be shot/arrested for being gay, or being butchered or imprisoned as a 'betrothed' woman for being perceived to have eyes for another man, or being stoned for insulting the national religion. But its not perfect and does not suit all. 

     

    In my view, to suggest that any person's or society's views should be forced (whether liberal, communist, fascist, conservative, etc) on another is the foundations of oppression and dictatorship. Whether or not we encourage migrants to conform to local customs or similar when they arrive in my view is another issue entirely as that is about embracing and encouraging cohesion for the benefit of all concerned. But on a macro level, in my view, should be discouraged at all costs. 

     

    In regards to becoming a target for attack that's not really relevant in my opinion. There are numerous unimportant countries that are attacked by terrorist cells because they believe any non-Muslim state is a threat to them. Just look how well staying out of things has worked in West Africa, Nigeria, Mali and Algeria under fire from terrorists and they largely stay out of such wars. Further, we arguably (along with the USA) have the best counter-intelligence services in the world (i'm not generally a patriot so this is not just nationalistic propaganda).

     

    That's a fair point but the young Muslims in particular do seem to support liberty as opposed to viewing us as the enemy so in this case, one man's terrorist is still a terrorist.

     

    Again a good point and as i stated i don't support imperialistic micro-managing of another state however as i've stated previously, i do believe that the west should act on its beliefs and be prepared to at least aid in bringing democracy to other countries (we should have enforced a no fly zone in Syria in 2011, it's only since then that terrorist cells have gotten involved). Whether they then choose to become socialists or capitalists is up to them.

     

    In terms of oppressing democracy on to them that's a fair enough point and i do believe that the ends justify the means but again i must stress that i don't believe in micro-management (and i think half of the PC stuff is wrong)..

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Pretty well spot on there Harry.

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    Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol

    I've lost count of the number of times the UN have proved useless and touthless in these situs during my lifetime.

    Is there really any point to this organisation anymore?

    My perception is that it only really serves a number of African despots and their egos these days OR am i being unfair?

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    In regards to becoming a target for attack that's not really relevant in my opinion. There are numerous unimportant countries that are attacked by terrorist cells because they believe any non-Muslim state is a threat to them. Just look how well staying out of things has worked in West Africa, Nigeria, Mali and Algeria under fire from terrorists and they largely stay out of such wars. Further, we arguably (along with the USA) have the best counter-intelligence services in the world (i'm not generally a patriot so this is not just nationalistic propaganda).

     

    That's a fair point but the young Muslims in particular do seem to support liberty as opposed to viewing us as the enemy so in this case, one man's terrorist is still a terrorist.

     

    Again a good point and as i stated i don't support imperialistic micro-managing of another state however as i've stated previously, i do believe that the west should act on its beliefs and be prepared to at least aid in bringing democracy to other countries (we should have enforced a no fly zone in Syria in 2011, it's only since then that terrorist cells have gotten involved). Whether they then choose to become socialists or capitalists is up to them.

     

    In terms of oppressing democracy on to them that's a fair enough point and i do believe that the ends justify the means but again i must stress that i don't believe in micro-management (and i think half of the PC stuff is wrong)..

     

    Interesting you mention Nigeria.

     

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2387359/Nigeria-country-corrupt-better-burn-aid-money.html

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    Quite honestly you look at all the different skirmishes and wars etc you would hardly credit that we were all part of the same human race inhabiting the same planet I think any alien being having a looksee at us would end up quite baffled.

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    Posted
  • Location: Home - Bexley, London/Kent border. Work - Cannon Street, C London
  • Location: Home - Bexley, London/Kent border. Work - Cannon Street, C London

    Quite honestly you look at all the different skirmishes and wars etc you would hardly credit that we were all part of the same human race inhabiting the same planet I think any alien being having a looksee at us would end up quite baffled.

     

    If you took religion out of the equation you'd have big chunk less to fight about!

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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    If you took religion out of the equation you'd have big chunk less to fight about!

    I'm sure that they'd find something, Harry: after all, religion is simply a means by which one bunch of twits pretends to better than another?

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    If you took religion out of the equation you'd have big chunk less to fight about!

    One of our club members died last month and there was a memorial service at his local church - the vicar said that during a discussion with this man (when he was still alive, I hasten to add) that he believed on God and not religion - this echoes my sentiments exactly on this subject.

     

    Far too many people have died in the name of religion which is a ludicrous state of affairs when it can't even be proved.

     

    ABNS,

     

    I wouldn't put it quite as simply as that - throughout history religion has been used as a means to enable the elite to control the masses, get them to know their place and die for them if necessary and in some parts of the world is still being used as such today.

     

    Where religion has fallen by the wayside it has been replaced by a mixture of patriotism and fear as in Stalin's Russia, then you get 'tribal' affiliations in football supporters and so on.

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    Posted
  • Location: Redbourn,Herts AL3. 122M ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Feb 2018 Easterly
  • Location: Redbourn,Herts AL3. 122M ASL

    For what good this will do.

     

    U.N. calls emergency meeting on Syria chemical weapons charges

     

    Syrian opposition activists in Douma provided this image said to show a man mourning over the body of a victim of an alleged poisonous gas attack outside the capital, Damascus. (Associated Press / August 21, 2013)

     

    http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-syria-un-chemical-weapons-20130821,0,5055483.story

     

     

    UN Rubbish, Global Politicians Rubbish, World Leaders Rubbish. Makes me sick, Yet again we have a power crazed lunatic who is believing he is different. "POWER" Yes I am going to show the global community that I can make a difference, Look at the press pics on the televised NEWS broadcast of A young Girl laying DEAD with her Mother. Some well known World leaders have stated He has gone way to far, Yet UN officials cant get in,Because China and Russia have trade with a lunatic. So we are back to this C--R--A--P State of Money and Power affair ,Before Human welfare. What makes me laugh about the whole process is, Apparently predictions have always stated that the 3rd world war would be with the East, Yet i have seen no rules or info in the Bible about UN officials NEED TO GO IN, Money or Power make all the decisions. I will make this clear, I have no attached religion . All it would take is for a decent human being to state Bfuggcker this,Who apparently believes this is wrong and Walks through a glossy black front door and funny enough uses his awesome human power to do the HUMANE thing and sort the bloody problem out, Why wait for it to get to this stage.

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    UN Rubbish, Global Politicians Rubbish, World Leaders Rubbish. Makes me sick, Yet again we have a power crazed lunatic who is believing he is different. "POWER" Yes I am going to show the global community that I can make a difference, Look at the press pics on the televised NEWS broadcast of A young Girl laying DEAD with her Mother. Some well known World leaders have stated He has gone way to far, Yet UN officials cant get in,Because China and Russia have trade with a lunatic. So we are back to this C--R--A--P State of Money and Power affair ,Before Human welfare. What makes me laugh about the whole process is, Apparently predictions have always stated that the 3rd world war would be with the East, Yet i have seen no rules or info in the Bible about UN officials NEED TO GO IN, Money or Power make all the decisions. I will make this clear, I have no attached religion . All it would take is for a decent human being to state Bfuggcker this,Who apparently believes this is wrong and Walks through a glossy black front door and funny enough uses his awesome human power to do the HUMANE thing and sort the bloody problem out, Why wait for it to get to this stage.

    Sorry, but you appear to be having a go at anyone who could possibly be in a position to do anything about this unhappy state and I am not entirely convinced that any oars shoved in will have the desired result and could possibly make things even worse for the ordinary Syrians, who like the rest of us merely want to raise their families in peace with some hope for the future, so what do you suggest should be done?

     

    In this current position there is little doubt that Assad is a complete A**ehole but should any of the multitude of the opposition parties actually take control, would it be any better - I expect that one day Assad will go and the power vacuum this leaves behind is likely to maintain the presence violence, if not increase it through their different rivalries and this could cause a succession of civil wars for years to come. 

     

    The ideal situation would be for everybody to put such differences behind them and develop a united people but I fear they are not ready for that yet - these things take time to develop.

     

    In my view apart from humanitarian aid any western intervention is a big no no.

     

    You only have to think back a short time and who was it supported Sadam Hussain in his was against Iraq? Who was it who supported Bin Laden in his fight against the Russians in Afghanistan? - I'm afraid we have a very poor track record in dealing with middle eastern matters - that is why we would do best by letting them sort it out themselves don't forget that in historical terms it is only a relatively short time ago when Europe was beset with religious and other rivalries and the price of life was cheap and this has been the situation for most of our history.

     

    You castigate the Russians and the Chinese because their reading of events is at variance with ours but to my mind it seems that they are more pragmatic. Although Assad is a despot, it could be that with backing he could get the country under control - we are not likely to agree with his methods and people would still be killed but I suspect that it would be far fewer than what is occurring at the moment with a civil war, which continues to escalate with time, Like everybody else they are entitled to their opinions and respect for the opinions of others even though we disagree with them underpins western democracy.

     

    No doubt there are less altruistic motives for the powers taking up their various stances but they are all guilty of this, whether they be western or eastern. 

    Edited by mike Meehan
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    You castigate the Russians and the Chinese because their reading of events is at variance with ours but to my mind it seems that they are more pragmatic. Although Assad is a despot, it could be that with backing he could get the country under control - we are not likely to agree with his methods and people would still be killed but I suspect that it would be far fewer than what is occurring at the moment with a civil war, which continues to escalate with time, Like everybody else they are entitled to their opinions and respect for the opinions of others even though we disagree with them underpins western democracy.

     

     

     

    Shades of Tito and Yugoslavia. Which of course introduces once again the question of better a dictator who can control internecine strife irrespective of his methods. One thing I will say, Putin and the Chinese are pragmatic? I'm  just going to join the flat earth society.

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    Posted
  • Location: Home - Bexley, London/Kent border. Work - Cannon Street, C London
  • Location: Home - Bexley, London/Kent border. Work - Cannon Street, C London

    Can someone please explain to me the difference between a 'regime' and an 'administration'?

    I strikes me that (sorry, another BBC dig!) whenever it's the likes of Assad, Saddam Hussein, Gadafi etc, those perceived enemies to and opponents of western democracy, they operate Regimes. Allies however run Administrations!!

    Semantics, or something more profound?

    Edited by Harry
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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Anybody thought that the Chinese and Russians are getting a different side to the story?  We only know what are press or government want us to know.

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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    Anybody thought that the Chinese and Russians are getting a different side to the story?  We only know what are press or government want us to know.

    The Russians have always had military ties there and China does not want the west gaining a stategic interest against its Iranian ally. Neither is to be trusted any more than our own government since all 3 have interests vested in the outcome.
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  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    The Russians have always had military ties there and China does not want the west gaining a stategic interest against its Iranian ally.Neither is to be trusted any more than our own government since all 3 have interests vested in the outcome.

    Not to mention the arms manufacturers' and lobbyists' interest in seeing an everlasting testing ground for their 'products'...

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    The Russians have always had military ties there and China does not want the west gaining a stategic interest against its Iranian ally.Neither is to be trusted any more than our own government since all 3 have interests vested in the outcome.

     

    Not as much as Israel I would suggest.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Posted Image

     

    The times front page tomorrow... Here we go again 

     

    To be more precise.© The Times.

     

    Abstract.

     

    BRITISH and US military planners are drawing up potential targets for missile strikes on Syria amid growing certainty that the Assad regime was behind chemical weapons attacks which killed hundreds of civilians last week.

     

    David Cameron and Barack Obama discussed “a serious response†including military action in a 40-minute phone call last night, according to Downing Street.

     

    While there has been no decision on whether to go ahead with a strike, staff in London and Washington are compiling a list of targets, among a range of options.

     

    Last week’s chemical attack by President Bashar al-Assad, and his failure to allow UN weapons inspectors to take samples from victims of the strikes, has forced Obama and Cameron to look at “all the optionsâ€, Downing Street said.

     

    “They reiterated that significant use of chemical weapons would merit a serious response from the international community and both have tasked officials to examine all the options,†said a No 10 spokesman.

     

    Although Cameron had promised MPs a vote before sanctioning the arming of Syrian rebels, Downing Street believes a Commons vote may not be required for it to take part in precision strikes against the Assad regime.

     

    Not to forget.

     

    Posted Image

    Edited by knocker
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