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The Middle East...where Are Events Taking Us?


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Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    As for Israel? As a relatively new state created along religious grounds in a hurry, it is hardly unexpected that it might not be slightly unwelcome to some locals, what with the walls, land grabs, settlements etc. A good start would be to have a recognised Palestinian state which might begin to even things up, given the latter lacks US backing, a high-tech army, nuclear weapons... My Isaeli friends agree; but not all their countrymen do - hence the problem.

    As is also Iran of course in the sense of revolution. I agree to a certain extent about the land grabbing but there is a certain amount of misapprehension about the US backing of Israel over the years. They were lacking in 1967 when huge amounts of arms support was supplied by the Soviet Union to the arab states and they were lucky to survive.. And for the record a huge number of Palistinans migrated to the area over the years because certain arab states didn't want them either.

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    There is no other description for what is happening other than war crime and genocide.   Israel is technically the occupying force on Gaza and as such is duty bound to protect civilians.   Complet

    The scenes in Gaza look like the aftermath of a nuclear bomb, utter devastation. The Israelis telling people to go back to their homes in northern Gaza as its "safe", what are they supposed to go back

    Reported on the BBC too... An air strike on an army camp has killed three soldiers, the Syrian government says, blaming the US-led coalition for the attack. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

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    As is also Iran of course in the sense of revolution. I agree to a certain extent about the land grabbing but there is a certain amount of misapprehension about the US backing of Israel over the years. They were lacking in 1967 when huge amounts of arms support was supplied by the Soviet Union to the arab states and they were lucky to survive.. And for the record a huge number of Palistinans migrated to the area over the years because certain arab states didn't want them either.

    Did they migrate or go back to their homes? - in any case the state of Palestine no longer exists and these people could be regarded as stateless. Edited by mike Meehan
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    About a month or so ago I heard a Jewish lady speaking on "Any Answers". She felt that the Israelis were giving the remainder of the Jews a poor image and for that reason she demonstrated against the Israeli Orchestra at Albert Hall during The Proms. In my view she had a point.

    What exactly do you mean by "the remainder of the Jews". It reminds of some years ago when i studying with the OU and certain lecturers in the country decided it would be a good idea to not teach Israeli students. The forum was blood bath. Naturally I got a red card.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Did they migrate or go back to their homes? - in any case the state of Palestine no longer exists and these people could be regarded as stateless.

    Sorry, what homes?

    Did they migrate or go back to their homes? - in any case the state of Palestine no longer exists and these people could be regarded as stateless.

    But they probably wouldn't be if they had not been not determined to get get rid of Israel, with the help of certain arab states.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    By coincidence there is an interesting article in the Times today on the subject. I'll paste it as the link isn't reliable. ©The Times.

    Nation or cause? Palestinians must choose

    Amir Taheri

    The Schalit deal could be a step to putting statehood ahead of the war on Israel

    If all goes well, Gilad Schalit, the young Israeli hostage in Gaza, will be home soon. In exchange, Israel has agreed to release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel’s Prime Minister, and the Hamas leader Ismail Haniya personally supervised the negotiations that led to the deal. The key words in all this are “negotiation”, “exchange” and “deal”. Hamas had vowed never to talk to Israel while Mr Netanyahu had insisted that he would talk only to the Palestinian Authority.

    All manner of interpretation can be attached to this deal in terms of political advantage. Mr Netanyahu could claim to have pulled off “the Schalit coup”; Mr Haniya can score points by showing that he could achieve what Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority President, could not. The deal also boosts Mr Haniyain the power struggle against Hamas’s pro-Iran faction led by Khaled Mashal.

    But of more importance is its significance in terms of the search for a two-state solution, for which many on both sides of the divide hope and pray.

    Attempts have been made to resolve this issue since 1947-48, when the UN Security Council promoted a two-state formula in what was left of Palestine under the British mandate.

    It foundered on a belief that has remained central to the failure to resolve the issue ever since. Arabs considered Palestine a small part of the great Arab nation (Umma al-Arabiya), not a nation in its own right. They were never interested in the creation of a Palestinian state. They were interested in “the cause”, meaning the destruction of Israel, after which the future of liberated Palestine would be decided.

    To this day Palestine remains a cause. Before it becomes a state it must first become a nation and then build a state to express its existence.

    None of the dozens of political parties that have claimed to represent the Palestinians in the past seven decades ever called itself national. Such movements as Yassir Arafat’s Fatah and Hamas do not include words such as “nation” and “national” in their designations. Fatah is an acronym for Palestine Liberation Movement; Hamas is an acronym for Islamic Resistance Movement.

    The contrast with modern national liberation movements elsewhere is telling. For all of them the word “nation” is the key to their identity. Thus, we have the African National Congress in South Africa, the National Liberation Front (FLN) in Algeria and the National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (Unita). Even the Communist-dominated Vietcong described itself as a national liberation front. Islamist or leftist, Palestinian political movements treat Palestine as a “cause” rather than a political project. This was spelled out by Mr Mashal in Tehran on October 3. “Our aim”, he said, “is liberating all of Palestine from the River to the Sea.”

    In other words, the cause is not to give Palestinians a state but to destroy Israel. Ramadan Shallah, leader of the Islamic Jihad for Palestine, was even more explicit.

    “When we come to power we shall not allow the Zionist regime to live a single moment,” he said.

    According to the newspaper Kayhan, both paid tribute to the “Supreme Guide” Ali Khamenei as the man who should have the final word on Palestine. Mr Mashal said: “The esteemed Commander of the Islamic Revolution, Imam Khamenei, is our Guide and Leader. His wishes will be the cause of the Palestinians. Our sovereign and master is Khamenei.”

    In his speech, Ayatollah Khamenei promised that, once Israel is destroyed, he would organise a referendum in which “Palestinians from all over the world” would decide what to do with “liberated Palestine”.

    Mr Mashal and Mr Shallah’s flattery of Khamenei imply that they do not believe in the existence of a Palestinian “nation”. A nation would not demand that the leader of a foreign country decide its future.

    The quest for a Palestinian state starts with the Palestinians themselves. They must decide whether they are a nation or a fragment of larger entities beyond their control.

    Once they have adopted the creation of a Palestinian state as a political project the Palestinians would be able to build the institutions of a modern state. This would start with training a new administrative elite rather than suicide-martyrdom squads to serve the cause and changing from an education system designed to brainwash generations of young people to one that teaches them the skills and knowledge necessary in the real world.

    Israel could negotiate and possibly reach an accommodation with an adversary that has proper political aspirations. A “cause”, however, is beyond negotiation.

    As long as Palestine remains a cause, every adventurer and scoundrel can use it for his own purposes. It is easy for outsiders to adopt heroic poses. Meanwhile, Palestinians and Israelis are dying.

    Amir Taheri’s book The Kingdom of Allah: the Struggle for Saudi Arabia will be published next year

    http://www.thetimes....icle3194065.ece

    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    What exactly do you mean by "the remainder of the Jews". It reminds of some years ago when i studying with the OU and certain lecturers in the country decided it would be a good idea to not teach Israeli students. The forum was blood bath. Naturally I got a red card.

    It's funny that institutions can racist against Israel yet be totally intolerant to racism against other nations. I watched an interview on the Beeb with a Hamas official saying Hamas wants a peaceful resolution. Now the more sensible amongst us know that Hamas wants the destruction of Israel. Strangely that question wasn't asked and neither was the question about missiles being fired into Israel which is still on going.

    Now if Scotland or Northern Ireland were firing rockets at random into England what do you think the reaction would be by Mr Cameron. Sit around and ignore it or military action?

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    What exactly do you mean by "the remainder of the Jews". It reminds of some years ago when i studying with the OU and certain lecturers in the country decided it would be a good idea to not teach Israeli students. The forum was blood bath. Naturally I got a red card.

    The Jews not living in the State of Israel but elsewhere in the world.

    Sorry, what homes?

    But they probably wouldn't be if they had not been not determined to get get rid of Israel, with the help of certain arab states.

    OK returned to the areas where they used to have homes and if you look at it from there point of view they could regard Israel as an occupying power.

    Now if Scotland or Northern Ireland were firing rockets at random into England what do you think the reaction would be by Mr Cameron. Sit around and ignore it or military action?

    Didn't we have a similar situation on the UK mainland when the IRA were setting off bombs - hopefully we are past this situation but there are still a few nationlist diehards around - probably take a generation for them to die out altogether.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Didn't we have a similar situation on the UK mainland when the IRA were setting off bombs - hopefully we are past this situation but there are still a few nationlist diehards around - probably take a generation for them to die out altogether.

    Yes we took military action however if the IRA was firing rockets daily into the UK mainland more drastic action would have been taken.

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    Yes we took military action however if the IRA was firing rockets daily into the UK mainland more drastic action would have been taken.

    Military action covers a wide spectrum from very well targeted to indiscriminate attacks.
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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Unrest in Tripoli with guns fights back in the streets. If they can't stabilize the country it will not be good and will allow extremists to rise.

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    Posted
  • Location: Cambridge
  • Location: Cambridge

    No comments on today? suprising. Anyway, for what its worth - brief thoughts on the Gilad Shalit 'swap' deal. Firstly, what a joy it is from the outside to see happy Israelis, Palestinians - happy Hamas and Fatah and happy Netanyahu and Abbas on the same day. Its all very perculiar. I am delighted that the boy is home - where he belongs, in the State of Israel. I'm also hugely relieved to see the return of the dozens of innocent and untried men (and women!) of Palestinians who have been returned, rightfully, to their families. May they too, enjoy each others company again. What I am not so thrilled about however, is the joy and celebrations that have kicked off in Gaza - for those, not who have been returned rightfully through their innocence - but for the Israeli blood they have spilled. One man told the BBC that 'they have stamped all over the heads of zionism' - this is not something conducive to a) anything other than continued Israeli aggression and http://hw.nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.png peace for his people. On the plus side, it shows that even Israel and Hamas can negotiate - perhaps something that could (maybe even should) set a precedent for future peace. It also adds weight against the myth that Israel won't negotiate. 13,509 Palestinian prisoners (the vast majority of whom have been convicted for the most hideous of crimes) have been traded for 14 alive and 2 dead Israeli soldiers.

    All in all though, a day to rejoice for ordinary Palestinians and ordinary Israelis. One of those rare occassions when we can look at them both and say. "if only it were like this more often." Here's hoping. Am yisrael chai and heres to Palestine.

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    Posted
  • Location: Cambridge
  • Location: Cambridge

    Gaza is not a prison camp - sure, it is in a dire state economically and is in need of a HUGE amount of help no thanks to Israel (and Hamas) - but I have been there. It is not a prison camp. You can go in, go out - go to Egyptian, Israeli hospitals; send trade abroad - have imports, exports - UN access, foriegn investment and humanitarian aid. A siege does not amount to it being a prison camp - you can see that on todays news. I bought bananas in Gaza from Spain. Not denying its a horrible place to live and be, because I agree its in a disgusting state - but its not a prison camp.

    An the celebration is not about that - its about the release of relatives - which I understand. I just dont like the celebration of (some) murderers as heroes - whether they be Zionist or Palestinian (and in this case they are the latter).

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    All in all though, a day to rejoice for ordinary Palestinians and ordinary Israelis. One of those rare occassions when we can look at them both and say. "if only it were like this more often." Here's hoping. Am yisrael chai and heres to Palestine.

    I'm not all sure that it is. I suspect this makes the chances of a peace settlement and a separate state.settlement further away. After all the cause ( and I use the word cause advisedly) of all the problems are exactly the same except that Hamas, or at least certain factions, consider confronting Israel is the way to the winning post. I suspect they may well find out they are wrong. And just for the record I think they are wrong.

    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I'm not all sure that it is. I suspect this makes the chances of a peace settlement and a separate state.settlement further away. After all the cause ( and I use the word cause advisedly) of all the problems are exactly the same except that Hamas, or at least certain factions, consider confronting Israel is the way to the winning post. I suspect they may well find out they are wrong. And just for the record I think they are wrong.

    If the Palestinians took a gandhi style approach, they'd likely have much more success in securing a fair settlement.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    If the Palestinians took a gandhi style approach, they'd likely have much more success in securing a fair settlement.

    No. I suspect that should apply to Syria and Iran. And you can stick Hezbollah in there as well although there I'm really talking about Syria and Iran again.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Further to this I don't think for one moment the Israelis will forgive or forget. And why should they, this isn't a Good Friday agreement. The links on the web site are quite interersting, well to me anyway.

    Murderers’ Row: Who are the terrorists being freed in the Shalit deal?

    (JTA) -- In exchange for Gilad Shalit's release, Israel is freeing 1,027 Palestinian security prisoners.

    The first 477, agreed upon with Hamas, were released Tuesday. Most had been serving life sentences for their roles in attacks against Israelis, and they included the organizers or perpetrators of many of the most infamous terrorist attacks against Israelis over the past several decades.

    The remaining 550 will be chosen by Israel and released in two months.

    The following are some of the more notorious terrorists being let out of prison as part of the deal:

    http://www.jta.org/n...ious-terrorists

    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: Barnehurst, near Bexleyheath, Kent
  • Location: Barnehurst, near Bexleyheath, Kent

    Let the conspiracy theories begin... Oh I see they already have!!

    I bet PP is busy searching the net as we speak...!
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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Yeh nobodies seen his body so he's alive and well somewhere else clearly kidnapped by the CIA.

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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    I thought I saw him in the chippy earlier.

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    Posted
  • Location: Whaley Bridge - Peak District
  • Weather Preferences: RACY, Extratropical Storm, Barocyclonic Leaf
  • Location: Whaley Bridge - Peak District

    lfcdude isn't far from the truth. I believe we are looking at two bodies here. One of Gaddaffi himself being killed in the NATO airstrike (that would also tie in with the general/s he was with.)

    Another picture shows the leader killed, but less 'bloodied' and less superficial body wounds, I believe this picture circulating around the mainstream media ISNT of the leader but his 'bodyguard' or double who was found hiding in sirte underneath storm drains.

    The pictures tell the story.

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    Posted
  • Location: Barnehurst, near Bexleyheath, Kent
  • Location: Barnehurst, near Bexleyheath, Kent

    I thought I saw him in the chippy earlier.

    That would have been Elvis!
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    Posted
  • Location: Devizes Wiltshire
  • Location: Devizes Wiltshire

    lfcdude isn't far from the truth. I believe we are looking at two bodies here. One of Gaddaffi himself being killed in the NATO airstrike (that would also tie in with the general/s he was with.)

    Another picture shows the leader killed, but less 'bloodied' and less superficial body wounds, I believe this picture circulating around the mainstream media ISNT of the leader but his 'bodyguard' or double who was found hiding in sirte underneath storm drains.

    The pictures tell the story.

    Always thought i was a genies... i will get my coat..... haha

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    I bet PP is busy searching the net as we speak...!

    I'll beat him to it................

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread766472/pg1

    Posted Image

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