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The Middle East...where Are Events Taking Us?


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Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Oh yes, such things are often conveniently forgotten; such is the nature of Westminster politics.

    Also conveniently foregotten is the fact that It never ceases to amaze me that in all the discussions about the modern middle east there is never a mention of the Soviet Union. Lets not forget they armed the Arab nations so they could destroy Israel. Happily they failed, I suspect it's because people are too busy having a go at the Yanks. Pathetic,

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    There is no other description for what is happening other than war crime and genocide.   Israel is technically the occupying force on Gaza and as such is duty bound to protect civilians.   Complet

    The scenes in Gaza look like the aftermath of a nuclear bomb, utter devastation. The Israelis telling people to go back to their homes in northern Gaza as its "safe", what are they supposed to go back

    Reported on the BBC too... An air strike on an army camp has killed three soldiers, the Syrian government says, blaming the US-led coalition for the attack. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Lets not forget Pinochet and that woman before we start condemning Blair etc..

    ...or the Romans.... but it's always Maggies fault isn't it?.Posted Image I'm suprised she doesn't get the blame for the Iraq war and Blair had nothing to do with it at all. Posted Image

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    ...or the Romans.... but it's always Maggies fault isn't it?.Posted Image I'm suprised she doesn't get the blame for the Iraq war and Blair had nothing to do with it at all. Posted Image

    Actually that could be true after all she was behind the Falklands fiasco although it was Carrington who fell on his sword.

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    Good old Daily Mail story today... links posted in Scotttish politcs thread. http://forum.netweat...ost__p__2128315

    The startling extent to which Labour misled the world over the controversial release of the Lockerbie bomber is exposed today in top-secret documents obtained by The Mail on Sunday.

    I am definitely not a follower of Blair or Brown but in a way I can see a certain logic in trying to tame this savage beast Gaddafi - for most of his 42 years in power he was anti-west and went to the extent of giving the IRA training facilities so they would be better in their bombing campaigns against the UK.

    Various sanctions were not working and as we know Gaddifi was a dangerous man - maybe a bit pragmatic but probably better that we could have where we could see him.

    According to the reports I have seen this policy was working and the threat from Libya was lessened. However we were all overtaken by events and his excesses grew a little too much for his own countrymen who rebelled.

    Probably it was similar in some respects to Chamberlain’s appeasement with Hitler but that got overtaken by events as well.

    We expect a government to defend the realm even if this does entail making questionable alliances at times. Unfortunately governments don‘t have crystal balls and it is so much easier to criticize with 20/20 hindsight.

    Actually that could be true after all she was behind the Falklands fiasco although it was Carrington who fell on his sword.

    Actually the Falklands fiasco was started by the foriegn office signalling we weren't that bothered about the Falklands so Argentina took this as a nod and a wink that it's occupation would not be opposed. The rest was history.

    ...or the Romans.... but it's always Maggies fault isn't it?.Posted Image I'm suprised she doesn't get the blame for the Iraq war and Blair had nothing to do with it at all.

    Of course she was - Blair was a secret admirer of Maggie Posted Image Edited by mike Meehan
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Of course she was - Blair was a secret admirer of Maggie Posted Image

    It was no secret ... Blair and Brown both openly adored her and Thatcherism which became the champagne socialism bedrock of Blairs Nu labour...

    http://news.sky.com/...article/1283968

    Sorry off topic... move to Uk politcal thread.

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    .

    Actually the Falklands fiasco was started by the foriegn office signalling we weren't that bothered about the Falklands so Argentina took this as a nod and a wink that it's occupation would not be opposed. The rest was history.

    I agree which is why Carrington fell on his sword but Mrs T. wielded a lead lined handbag when running cabinet meetings so it's not unreasonable to assume she colluded on the policy. Ergo, the buck stops....................

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    I agree which is why Carrington fell on his sword but Mrs T. wielded a lead lined handbag when running cabinet meetings so it's not unreasonable to assume she colluded on the policy. Ergo, the buck stops....................

    Vacarious liability yes, 'because she was the boss so to speak but I'm not convinced that she knew about the cock up by the FO until it was too late. Then the islanders were British subjects and surely they should have had a say in who governed them without it being imposed by the Argentinians.

    I think it ws fairly well known at the time that the Argentinian was having its own domestic problems and the invasion of the Falklands was a ploy to divert their public attention from these issues.

    As far as I see it the whole issue was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

    Edited by mike Meehan
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Vacarious liability yes, 'because she was the boss so to speak but I'm not convinced that she knew about the cock up by the FO until it was too late.

    As far as I see it the whole issue was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

    Vacarious liability. Blimey, Sorry to bring it up again but I'm not sure why we were defending 10, 000 sheep. Perhaps resources are a major player.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/feb/22/falkland-islands-oil-drilling-begins

    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    Vacarious liability. Blimey, Sorry to bring it up again but I'm not sure why we were defending 10, 000 sheep. Perhaps resources are a major player.

    http://www.guardian....drilling-begins

    Well the cynic in me has always thought that Thatcher's inevitable and well-earned thrashing in the polls was the deciding factor. IMO, there can be very little (none?) doubt at all that, without the Falklands War, she'd have been beaten out of sight at the next election...Maybe that's why warmongering has become such a staple diet since then?

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    Well the cynic in me has always thought that Thatcher's inevitable and well-earned thrashing in the polls was the deciding factor. IMO, there can be very little (none?) doubt at all that, without the Falklands War, she'd have been beaten out of sight at the next election...Maybe that's why warmongering has become such a staple diet since then?

    I suspect that that this was in Blair's mind when he decided to engage us in a war against Iraq and he was trying to emulate Maggie in this respect. The funny thing is that if Maggie was PM at the time of the Iraq fiasco, I doubt that she would have have joined Bush in this ill considered war.
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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    I suspect that that this was in Blair's mind when he decided to engage us in a war against Iraq and he was trying to emulate Maggie in this respect. The funny thing is that if Maggie was PM at the time of the Iraq fiasco, I doubt that she would have have joined Bush in this ill considered war.

    Probably also true, Mike. Didn't the Thatch and Ronny Raygun actively arm Al Queda, Saddam and those obnoxious Contras?

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    It's very difficult what to make of this very surprising change of policy.

    Assad isolated after Iran calls for end to bloody crackdown

    President Ahmadinejad has stunned his closest ally in the region, calling on the Syrian regime to halt violence and begin dialogue with the opposition.

    The Iranian leader, who has cultivated close political, economic and military ties with President Assad, used a live television interview to drop the bombshell. “A military solution is never the right solution,” he told a Portuguese news channel. “We believe that freedom, justice and respect for others are the rights of all nations. All governments have to recognise these rights. Problems have to be dealt with through dialogue.”

    Mr Ahmadinejad’s surprising intervention leaves the Assad regime, already shunned by most of the Arab world, critically isolated. It marks a significant shift from Tehran’s previous stance on the six-month uprising.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article3158948.ece

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    Probably also true, Mike. Didn't the Thatch and Ronny Raygun actively arm Al Queda, Saddam and those obnoxious Contras?

    Yes they did but at the time they were fighting the bad old USSR and and as everybody knows - he who fights my enemy is my friend.

    First an foremost the majority of policians, no matter what party, are pragmatists - we wouldn't have them in an ideal world but in the imperfect world as we have it today what other choice is there if we want to keep something loosely connected with democracy?

    It's very difficult what to make of this very surprising change of policy.

    Assad isolated after Iran calls for end to bloody crackdown

    President Ahmadinejad has stunned his closest ally in the region, calling on the Syrian regime to halt violence and begin dialogue with the opposition.

    The Iranian leader, who has cultivated close political, economic and military ties with President Assad, used a live television interview to drop the bombshell. “A military solution is never the right solution,” he told a Portuguese news channel. “We believe that freedom, justice and respect for others are the rights of all nations. All governments have to recognise these rights. Problems have to be dealt with through dialogue.”

    Mr Ahmadinejad’s surprising intervention leaves the Assad regime, already shunned by most of the Arab world, critically isolated. It marks a significant shift from Tehran’s previous stance on the six-month uprising.

    http://www.thetimes....icle3158948.ece

    Another pragmatist - direct the attention of his peoples' woes to somewhere outside and at the same time say soothing words to take the wind out of the sails of any would be revolutionaries - shrewd.
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    Posted
  • Location: Dorset
  • Location: Dorset

    Why can't Israel and bini ever say sorry for anything, instead of saying sorry for killing a number of Egyptian police men in cold blood all they could say was it was regretable.....

    Now they have this kind of reaction, which frankly is understandable but not condonable.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/14864411

    Egypt on alert after Israel embassy stormed in Cairo

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    Why can't Israel and bini ever say sorry for anything, instead of saying sorry for killing a number of Egyptian police men in cold blood all they could say was it was regretable.....

    Now they have this kind of reaction, which frankly is understandable but not condonable.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/14864411

    Egypt on alert after Israel embassy stormed in Cairo

    Interestingly we were driving up the M5 today, listening to "Any Answers" at lunch time and a lady who claimed she was Jewish rang up - no reason to disbelieve her - generally she was anti Israel, saying that they were too heavy handed and felt that they gave the rest of the Jews who don't live there a bad name. She had also taken part in several anti Israeli demonstrations.

    She didn't say how widespread her views were amongst say the British Jews but if they can raise sufficient following for a demonstration it is unlikely that she was a lone voice in the wilderness.

    So it appears that the Israelis are not totally popular with their cousins living overseas.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    It is probably correct that Israel overreact on occasions and their settlement program is not the way to go but just reflect. As a nation they have lived for 63 years under the threat of Arab nations and organisations such as Hezbollah whose one ambition is to destroy Israel and are heavily backed by Iran. Indeed for many of those years the arab nations were supplied with huge amounts of weapons by the Soviet Union and on on at least one occasion were lucky to survive. In the circumstances I don't find their overreaction surprising. It's also interesting that during this period not many of the arab states wanted the Palestinians either.

    As a matter of interest are Muslims in this country happy with Hezbollah and Iran?

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Why can't Israel and bini ever say sorry for anything, instead of saying sorry for killing a number of Egyptian police men in cold blood all they could say was it was regretable.....

    Now they have this kind of reaction, which frankly is understandable but not condonable.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/14864411

    Egypt on alert after Israel embassy stormed in Cairo

    Who said sorry after blowing up buses in Israel full of children?

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    It is probably correct that Israel overreact on occasions and their settlement program is not the way to go but just reflect. As a nation they have lived for 63 years under the threat of Arab nations and organisations such as Hezbollah whose one ambition is to destroy Israel and are heavily backed by Iran. Indeed for many of those years the arab nations were supplied with huge amounts of weapons by the Soviet Union and on on at least one occasion were lucky to survive. In the circumstances I don't find their overreaction surprising. It's also interesting that during this period not many of the arab states wanted the Palestinians either.

    As a matter of interest are Muslims in this country happy with Hezbollah and Iran?

    It doesn't really answer the problem, in fact as time moved on attitudes appear to get more and more polorised, so we end up with the Moslem fundamentalists on one side and the Zionists on the other and neither side appears to be willing to give way, so we end up with an escalating stalemate situation but if this problem does not get sorted out it will end up with the two "protagonists" getting hurt more than anyone - already it has cost countless lives and for what?

    There have been times and places in history when and where Jews, Moslems and Christians have co-existed quite peaceably - one such episode I am thinking of is Algeria at the time when it was still a French colony. We did a book on that in French describing what life was like at that time.

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    Posted
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark

    It might be an oxymoron to put secular Jews, secular Muslims, and secular Christians, but people will get my drift. I mean ordinary folk brought up in a particular faith, and yet do not let religious ideas come between themselves and others.

    Surely, anyone can understand that there are various shades of faith, and of course, moderately minded people can live in harmony if they try hard enough. It is when zealous and bigoted people gain influence that the trouble starts between people of different religion. As far as I can tell, the religious combatants in the Middle East are equally to blame for listening to fundamentalist claptrap. it has been that way since the year dot, and there really is no prospect of a solution.

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    Posted
  • Location: Dorset
  • Location: Dorset

    Who said sorry after blowing up buses in Israel full of children?

    Sorry but I think there is a world of difference, Egypt is one of the few friends that Israel has in the region, just as Turkey was, however the present govt in Israel has done it best to alienate even this friendly countries. If a government kills a load of boarder policemen by accident of a friendly country is it really that hard to say sorry ?.

    The people blowing up buses(many years ago) where not friendly to Israel and did it deliberately so of course they are not going to say sorry.

    The govt. of Israel needs to live in the present and not the past, they need to show humility and forgiveness, they need to understand that every action they perform will have a reaction, if they do this which won't take much effort then things will greatly improve for them and other countries. They don't have to talk to terrorists, they don't have to get "soft".

    The general people of Isreal that have lived there for decades now are much more aware of this, much more tolerant and much less arch rightwing (Only 68% of Isreal jews actually born there). With the more tolerant Israel's leaving and being replaced by less tolerant ones the country is probably in more and more trouble.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Not just Labour doing deals in the desert; Tories at it too. Another letter has come to light, and this after Dave et al. attacked the Scots government for the fact that Megrahi was not dead yet.

    http://www.mirror.co...15875-23414050/

    Ex Tory minister's £1m bill to Libya for al-Megrahi work

    A FORMER Tory minister asked Colonel Muammar Gaddafi’s fugitive son Saif al-Islam to help him recover almost £1million in fees for helping free the Lockerbie bomber.

    A letter written by Lord Trefgarne seeking payment was found on the outskirts of Tripoli at an abandoned farmhouse owned by Saif, who is wanted for crimes against humanity. The former trade minister gave the Libyans advice on Scottish law with QC Professor Robert Black.

    This follows on from last year when the... Scottish government published a letter written in 2009 by the same former Tory Trade Minister in which he pressed Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill to return al-Megrahi to Libya for reasons of trade and business.

    The request was firmly rebuffed by Mr MacAskill who replied to him: "I have said quite clearly that my decision will be one based on judicial grounds alone and that economic and political considerations have no place in the process."

    Cameron under pressure to apologise after Megrahi letter exposes Tory hypocrisy

    http://newsnetscotla...-hypocrisy.html

    What an ugly, smelly business, with Megrahi quite possibly innocent. At best a pawn.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Not just Labour doing deals in the desert; Tories at it too. Another letter has come to light, and this after Dave et al. attacked the Scots government for the fact that Megrahi was not dead yet.

    http://www.mirror.co...15875-23414050/

    Ex Tory minister's £1m bill to Libya for al-Megrahi work

    A FORMER Tory minister asked Colonel Muammar Gaddafi’s fugitive son Saif al-Islam to help him recover almost £1million in fees for helping free the Lockerbie bomber.

    A letter written by Lord Trefgarne seeking payment was found on the outskirts of Tripoli at an abandoned farmhouse owned by Saif, who is wanted for crimes against humanity. The former trade minister gave the Libyans advice on Scottish law with QC Professor Robert Black.

    This follows on from last year when the... Scottish government published a letter written in 2009 by the same former Tory Trade Minister in which he pressed Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill to return al-Megrahi to Libya for reasons of trade and business.

    The request was firmly rebuffed by Mr MacAskill who replied to him: "I have said quite clearly that my decision will be one based on judicial grounds alone and that economic and political considerations have no place in the process."

    Cameron under pressure to apologise after Megrahi letter exposes Tory hypocrisy

    http://newsnetscotla...-hypocrisy.html

    What an ugly, smelly business, with Megrahi quite possibly innocent. At best a pawn.

    The actions of the Tory peer were utterly repugnant if this were to be the case and Cameron should speak out against him - however this appears to be the act of an opportunistic greedy individual rather than a collective action by the Tories - I doubt that Cameron knew about it until the discovery of this letter.
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