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The Middle East...where Are Events Taking Us?


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Posted
  • Location: Devizes Wiltshire
  • Location: Devizes Wiltshire

    Do you know where Zimbabwe is? We could never have taken military action there, it was logistically imposible. We could help in Libya because it was easily accesible by sea & from land bases in Italy & other Southern European countries. How on earth would we get the planes to Zimbabwe?

    This obsession that NATO & the west only intervenes when oil is at stake is more conspiracy theory rubbish.

    do enlighten me.. when has nato done much for non oil rich country's...

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    There is no other description for what is happening other than war crime and genocide.   Israel is technically the occupying force on Gaza and as such is duty bound to protect civilians.   Complet

    The scenes in Gaza look like the aftermath of a nuclear bomb, utter devastation. The Israelis telling people to go back to their homes in northern Gaza as its "safe", what are they supposed to go back

    Reported on the BBC too... An air strike on an army camp has killed three soldiers, the Syrian government says, blaming the US-led coalition for the attack. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    do enlighten me.. when has nato done much for non oil rich country's...

    One could suggest the Balkans. Of course some bright spark might suggest protecting future pipeline agreements that would explain major Russian involvement in the conflict.

    http://www.nato.int/...s/balkans-e.pdf

    http://www.eoearth.o..._of_the_Balkans

    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    I'd say PP has a point. We were asked to support NATO's intervention in the air in order to prevent Gaddafi's military technology giving that civil war imbalance. The Libyan military was not to be deployed against its own population. I certainly understood that once Gaddafi's unfair advantage was eliminated, we would leave it all to the Libyans to sort out their affairs. That seems not to have happened.

    Of course, it can be claimed Gaddafi still has a few bits and pieces of hardware that his opponents lack, and NATO's intervention remains justified. It seems though that the west is determined on a regime change, which is quite contrary to what was said at the outset.

    PP, you do realise that although France and the United Kingdom have taken the lead this time around, that in fact Norway, The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark and Italy - among others - have also contributed? If there is an ulterior motive for their deeds, then we must concede this mottley bunch of bedfellows are for once united.

    There are many contributors in Afghanistan too, but the war is still unjust and for an ulterior motive - i.e. energy hegemony.

    Anyway....

    It is curious that our leaders don't seem to care. There's terrible famine in Somalia and genocide in the Congo and our NATO leaders focus on taking out Qaddafi as if it's the worst problem? Why no intervention in Bahrain when the government was murdering protestors? Why no intervention in Syria? Why no intervention in Darfur? Why no intervention in Uzbekistan? etc etc. Seriously.

    Rebel forces and armed civilians are rounding up thousands of black Libyans and migrants from sub-Sahara Africa, imprisoning them in makeshift jails across the capital and accusing them of being mercenaries for Moammar Gadhafi.

    As the rebels and their Transitional National Council (TNC) struggle to maintain credibility in a post-Gadhafi Libya, they have been targeting black Africans for weeks now. The United Nations warned about mass arrests, beatings, and revenge-killings against the suspected mercenaries, and the African Union this week refused to recognize the TNC as the legitimate governing authority in Libya on the grounds that their treatment of the black Africans was a human rights violation.

    http://news.antiwar....black-africans/

    Far far to early to say. We could have replaced one extreme regime for another or started another civil war as the country divides itself. Time will tell but I wouldn't blow any trumpets yet. Hopefully it will not become another extremist regime and will become peaceful and moderate.

    No.

    We TOOK SIDES in a civil war that was already developing. The UN resolution was also torn up and violated. Why are we supporting hardline Islamists such as Belhadj at the top of the rebel command?

    I don't believe for one second that the NATO actions in Libya have ever been for humanitarian reasons or "protecting democracy and freedom". That's what Bush told us before he raped and pillaged Iraq.

    Edited by PersianPaladin
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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    The Triumvirate, and its fawning media, would have the world believe that what's happened in Libya is just another example of the Arab Spring, a popular uprising by non-violent protestors against a dictator for the proverbial freedom and democracy, spreading spontaneously from Tunisia and Egypt, which sandwich Libya. But there are several reasons to question this analysis in favor of seeing the Libyan rebels' uprising as a planned and violent attempt to take power in behalf of their own political movement, however heterogeneous that movement might appear to be in its early stage. For example:

    • They soon began flying the flag of the monarchy that Gaddafi had overthrown
    • They were an armed and violent rebellion almost from the beginning; within a few days, we could read of "citizens armed with weapons seized from army bases"3 and of "the policemen who had participated in the clash were caught and hanged by protesters"4
    • Their revolt took place not in the capital but in the heart of the country's oil region; they then began oil production and declared that foreign countries would be rewarded oil-wise in relation to how much each country aided their cause
    • They soon set up a Central Bank, a rather bizarre thing for a protest movement
    • International support came quickly, even beforehand, from Qatar and al Jazeera to the CIA and French intelligence

    Libya and the world we live in

    September 1, 2011, William Blum, The Anti-Empire Report

    http://killinghope.o...lum6/aer97.html

    Then there was this in early March:-

    SAS and MI6 officers released by Libya's rebel commanders

    The group's capture is a major embarrassment to the British government and could potentially undermine the rebels' claims that the revolution has had solely domestic roots

    http://www.guardian....ed-libya-rebels

    Ya know....this is not the first time that the West tried to use Al-Qaeda connected terrorists to get rid of Ghadaffi.

    Here is a case-study of a man called Anas Al-Liby:-

    In 1996, British intelligence will pay al-Liby to assassinate Libyan leader Colonel Mu’ammar al-Qadhafi (see 1996), and then will let him live openly in Britain until 2000 (see 1995-May 2000).

    Anas al-Liby, member of a Libyan al-Qaeda affiliate group called Al-Muqatila, lives in Britain during this time. He had stayed with bin Laden in Sudan (see May 18, 1996). In 1995, he moves to Britain and applies for political asylum, claiming to be a political enemy of the Libyan government. He is involved in an al-Qaeda plot (see Late 1993-Late 1994) that will result in the bombing of two US embassies in Africa in 1998 (see 10:35-10:39 a.m., August 7, 1998).

    http://www.historyco...ty=anas_al-liby

    The most powerful and influential governments in the world are little more than mafia-states. They install corrupt puppets in energy/resource-rich nations and whenever the puppet starts to become a liability - we hire people to "whack" them. This is an unfortunate fact of life.

    Edited by PersianPaladin
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    Posted
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark

    The most powerful and influential governments in the world are little more than mafia-states. They install corrupt puppets in energy/resource-rich nations and whenever the puppet starts to become a liability - we hire people to "whack" them. This is an unfortunate fact of life.

    Nay, calm yourself sir. Overstating your case will not make it more credible.

    We have every reason to be suspicious of western politicians. Their schemes are many, varied and often cunning. Very likely they initially become interested in politics at an early age, and are idealists, whatever their persuasion. Marx was correct though, people are easy to seduce with a little power, a little influence, a well-paid position, titles and status. Sooner or later, most fall into line, and those who don't are fortunate to survive in politics. The result is we have a class of professional politicians who are in for the duration. Pigs in clover. I know of a disgusting case here in Denmark where a small coastal town had a pasture to the rear, reclaimed from the sea by drainage some 80 years ago. The spot remained very marshy, and the adjacent parts of the town were the least attractive bits. Several politically connected people purchased a long tract of this marsh in the 1980s, knowing that plans were afoot to build a by-pass in a number of years, plus in the name of conservation to radically alter traffic in the old town centre. They waited very patiently until their bog was forceably purchased from them by the state at an inflated rate; cars were banned from the old town centre and high street; planning permission was granted for a new shopping centre next to the new by-pass; the council closed the old town centre library and built a new one, plus a swimming pool, guess where, on land leased from the owners of the bog.

    This sort of business has been going on since the year dot, and is allowed to happen because Joe Bloggs on the street is too indolent to protest, and no wonder, look where Bolshevism got the Russians.

    Regarding Libya, you know of course that back in Nelson's time the Bashaw of Tripoli was a pirate. From what I read of him, he was just like Gaddafi, an utterly unreliable despot, who in the best of Marxist traditions could be swayed by gifts, preferably numerous and expensive. I shouldn't be surprised if the Libyans have just replaced like for like.

    Edited by Alan Robinson
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Romford Essex.
  • Location: Near Romford Essex.

    Do you know where Zimbabwe is? We could never have taken military action there, it was logistically imposible. We could help in Libya because it was easily accesible by sea & from land bases in Italy & other Southern European countries. How on earth would we get the planes to Zimbabwe?

    This obsession that NATO & the west only intervenes when oil is at stake is more conspiracy theory rubbish.

    Do you know where the Falkland Islands are? Did we not manage to bomb the runways there,using aircraft that had travelled thousands of miles???

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Do you know where the Falkland Islands are? Did we not manage to bomb the runways there,using aircraft that had travelled thousands of miles???

    If you are talking about the Black Buck raids from Ascension they were a logistical nightmare and achieved virtually nothing. And of course they weren't flying over sovereign territory.

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    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Romford Essex.
  • Location: Near Romford Essex.

    If you are talking about the Black Buck raids from Ascension they were a logistical nightmare and achieved virtually nothing. And of course they weren't flying over sovereign territory.

    Posted Image

    As you say it was a very difficult operation,but it was achieved.

    As for it achieving virtually nothing,do not agree there,the runways were put out of action thus preventing Argentinian Aircraft using the Falklands as a base.

    As your globe shows Zimbabwe is a lot closer to Ascension than the Falklands.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    As you say it was a very difficult operation,but it was achieved.

    As for it achieving virtually nothing,do not agree there,the runways were put out of action thus preventing Argentinian Aircraft using the Falklands as a base.

    As your globe shows Zimbabwe is a lot closer to Ascension than the Falklands.

    The military success of Black Buck remains controversial to this day with some independent sources describing it as minimal, the damage to the airfield and radars being quickly repaired. The runway continued to be used by Argentine C-130s until the end of the war and was also available for Aermacchi MB-339 jets and FMA Pucarás. As a result of the controversy a number of common misconceptions exist about the raid.

    And I repeat to reach Zimbabwe you have the small problem of flying over sovereign airspace.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    You could mount an operation in Zimbabwe if South Africa agreed to it.

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    Posted
  • Location: Powys Mid Wales borders.
  • Location: Powys Mid Wales borders.

    One of Africa`s most developed country,it`s now a horrific charnel house.Nobody knows the true toll or ever will,but minimally it includes 10`s of thousands dead,multiples more injured,vast destrution across large parts of the country,terrified millions not knowing what`s coming next,imperial occupation,plunder of libya`s resources,and continued conflict and violence like afghanistan and Iraq.

    http://warisacrime.org/content/libya-natos-latest-charnel-house

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Romford Essex.
  • Location: Near Romford Essex.

    The military success of Black Buck remains controversial to this day with some independent sources describing it as minimal, the damage to the airfield and radars being quickly repaired. The runway continued to be used by Argentine C-130s until the end of the war and was also available for Aermacchi MB-339 jets and FMA Pucarás. As a result of the controversy a number of common misconceptions exist about the raid.

    And I repeat to reach Zimbabwe you have the small problem of flying over sovereign airspace.

    IF the British govenment wanted to remove(and they dont) the evil murdering dictator Mugabe then i am pretty sure the South African govenment could be persuaded to let us use their airspace.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    You invade Bahrain. We take out Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. This, in short, is the essence of a deal struck between the Barack Obama administration and the House of Saud. Two diplomatic sources at the United Nations independently confirmed that Washington, via Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, gave the go-ahead for Saudi Arabia to invade Bahrain and crush the pro-democracy movement in their neighbor in exchange for a "yes" vote by the Arab League for a no-fly zone over Libya - the main rationale that led to United Nations Security Council resolution 1973.

    The revelation came from two different diplomats, a European and a member of the BRIC group, and was made separately to a US scholar and Asia Times Online. According to diplomatic protocol, their names cannot be disclosed. One of the diplomats said, "This is the reason why we could not support resolution 1973. We were arguing that Libya, Bahrain and Yemen were similar cases, and calling for a fact-finding mission. We maintain our official position that the resolution is not clear, and may be interpreted in a belligerent manner."

    As Asia Times Online has reported, a full Arab League endorsement of a no-fly zone is a myth. Of the 22 full members, only 11 were present at the voting. Six of them were Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) members, the US-supported club of Gulf kingdoms/sheikhdoms, of which Saudi Arabia is the top dog. Syria and Algeria were against it. Saudi Arabia only had to "seduce" three other members to get the vote.

    Translation: only nine out of 22 members of the Arab League voted for the no-fly zone. The vote was essentially a House of Saud-led operation, with Arab League secretary general Amr Moussa keen to polish his CV with Washington with an eye to become the next Egyptian President.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD02Ak01.html

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    IF the British govenment wanted to remove(and they dont) the evil murdering dictator Mugabe then i am pretty sure the South African govenment could be persuaded to let us use their airspace.

    Yes, the British Government do not wish to remove the evil dictator Mugabe - as you say - as there is no oil.

    Back on Libya. An article in Today's independent:

    http://www.independe...on-2348394.html

    Moussa Koussa's secret letters betray Britain's Libyan connection

    Messages found in his office show how MI6 gave details of dissident exiles to Gaddafi – and how the CIA used regime for rendition

    Secret files have been unearthed by The Independent in Tripoli that reveal the astonishingly close links that existed between British and American governments and Muammar Gaddafi.

    The documents chart how prisoners were offered to the Libyans for brutal interrogation by the Tripoli regime under the highly controversial "rendition" programme, and also how details of exiled opponents of the Libyan dictator in the UK were passed on to the regime by MI6.

    The papers show that British officials actually helped write a draft speech for Colonel Gaddafi while he was trying to rehabilitate his regime from the pariah status to which it had sunk following its support for terrorist movements. Further documents disclose how, at the same time, the US and UK acted on behalf of Libya in conducting negotiations with the International Atomic Energy Agency.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    IF the British govenment wanted to remove(and they dont) the evil murdering dictator Mugabe then i am pretty sure the South African govenment could be persuaded to let us use their airspace.

    The British have no interest in removing Mugabe.

    Another British success story! It was the the Brits who effectively brought him to power!

    Mrs Kiwi was born and brought up in Bulawayo, Zimbabwe(Rhodesia) and unsuprisingly she is both very sad and angry about the mess the country is now in.

    Seems like the UK has had a fair bit of involvement with messing up peoples lives in Libya as well! (Incidently Big Tony seems to be keeping a low profile at the moment....or is he hunkered down with his pal in a bedouin tent somewhere?)

    Edited by Kiwi
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    The British have no interest in removing Mugabe.

    Another British success story! It was the the Brits who effectively brought him to power!

    Mrs Kiwi was born and brought up in Bulawayo, Zimbabwe(Rhodesia) and unsuprisingly she is both very sad and angry about the mess the country is now in.

    Seems like the UK has had a fair bit of involvement with messing up peoples lives in Libya as well! (Incidently Big Tony seems to be keeping a low profile at the moment....or is he hunkered down with his pal in a bedouin tent somewhere?)

    Doubt it, didn't Gadaffi hate the Bedouins?

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    And you think Zuma would agree to that? I don't.

    Depends on what the US and GB can offer.

    In reality over running the country probably wouldn't take long so there must be another reason why not.

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    History is littered with mistakes, some often made by well intentioned people, certainly without the aid of a crystal ball and very often with an insufficient knowledge of the subjects by which they made the decisions.

    Historically those making the decisions were from ruling classes and it appears made from their own personal experience, beliefs, backgrounds and prejudices with little attempt to try and see the situation in the eyes of others.

    In short the attitude “Might is right” was the order of the day.

    Early in the 20th century, or really the start was a little earlier, the seeds were sown for a Jewish homeland in Palestine and this developed until 1948 when the UN recognized Israel as a state – little of this was envisaged in the early days of the century when it was thought that the Jews would be living in a state with a Palestinian majority where they would live together happily ever after.

    Many Palestinians were dislodged from their homes and lands where their families had been for generations and those that stayed became second class citizens in their own lands. It’s tantamount to returning to your home from holiday to find the squatters have taken it over in your absence.

    Not surprisingly the Palestinians were somewhat peeved by this, as were their neighbours.

    The problem was exasperated by the USA who gave them favourable treatment – any president or wannabe president ignored the Jewish vote in America at his peril.

    America is still perceived as the leader of the western world and I doubt that there are many in the Middle East who would not think of Israel and America as being hand in hand with each other and this attitude is extended to the rest of the Western World.

    My view is that as long as Israel remains there in its present form it will always be an impediment to a lasting peace in that part of the world and the antagonism is extended generally to the west as well.

    The damage has now been done and the world is hardly in a position to deport the Israeli Jews from Israel but urgent consideration needs to be given as to how the Israeli Palestinians can be given the same rights as the Jewish majority and all have equal opportunities and footing under the law. This is not helped by the building of walls which segregate the two populations and end up with Palestinian ghettos scattered throughout the land; also for the formation of a fully fledged Palestinian state.

    In my view this appears to be the root cause of Middle Eastern problems made worse by the carving up of their lands after WWI and yes the scramble for oil too, though in some cases in Middle Eastern states it has been the privileged few who have benefited at the expense of their people, so the West is not solely to blame for this.

    Barring Divine intervention it looks like this stage is set for a good many years into the future.

    Edited by mike Meehan
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    Posted
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark

    Barring Divine intervention it looks like this stage is set for a good many years into the future.

    The differences have existed since antiquity, and there is absolutely nothing that suggests an amicable solution is near.

    Judaism's foundation is that Abraham entered a covenant with God; who in return for Abraham's worship made Abraham the founder of a great nation whose home would be Israel. It doesn't get much more basic than this. Some believe those living in the disputed regions and who were not descended from Abraham are squatters with no right to be there.

    In the Irish conflict it is conveniently ignored that Pope Adrian IV authorised Henry II to invade Ireland, thus beginning over 800 years of strife in that poor island. Catholics don't like the fact that their head of church gave Ireland to the Normans, and the Protestants don't like the fact that Adrian IV was in fact English. Religion has caused widespread conflict throughout the world, and it is at the bottom of the Israel strife. These bigoted people will not suddenly disappear, and neither will the dispute, even if the modern Jewish state were to be obliterated tomorrow. The Jews see themselves as a nation that has wandered in the wilderness for ages, and now they have finally come home.

    We can have our sympathy for Israel, not least because of the holocaust, or we can revile them notwithstanding, as many Arabs do. I shall not take sides. However, I fear for Israel in the long term, because its benefactor, the United States, is in gradual but persistent decline, and sooner or later Israel's neighbours will think the USA so feeble that they are able to wreak their vehement revenge with impunity - all in the name of less than 25,000 km^2 of arid desert and rocky hills. How stupid can Homo sapiens get?

    Edited by Alan Robinson
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    The differences have existed since antiquity, and there is absolutely nothing that suggests an amicable solution is near.

    Judaism's foundation is that Abraham entered a covenant with God; who in return for Abraham's worship made Abraham the founder of a great nation whose home would be Israel. It doesn't get much more basic than this. Some believe those living in the disputed regions and who were not descended from Abraham are squatters with no right to be there.

    In the Irish conflict it is conveniently ignored that Pope Adrian IV authorised Henry II to invade Ireland, thus beginning over 800 years of strife in that poor island. Catholics don't like the fact that their head of church gave Ireland to the Normans, and the Protestants don't like the fact that Adrian IV was in fact English. Religion has caused widespread conflict throughout the world, and it is at the bottom of the Israel strife. These bigoted people will not suddenly disappear, and neither will the dispute, even if the modern Jewish state were to be obliterated tomorrow. The Jews see themselves as a nation that has wandered in the wilderness for ages, and now they have finally come home.

    We can have our sympathy for Israel, not least because of the holocaust, or we can revile them notwithstanding, as many Arabs do. I shall not take sides. However, I fear for Israel in the long term, because its benefactor, the United States, is in gradual but persistent decline, and sooner or later Israel's neighbours will think the USA so feeble that they are able to wreak their vehement revenge with impunity - all in the name of less than 25,000 km^2 of arid desert and rocky hills. How stupid can Homo sapiens get?

    Like you Alan, I don't take sides but a couple of further things which do occur and which should have been taken into consideration by those contemplating a Jewish homeland prior to say, 1930, is that throughout history there have been pogroms against the Jews in various parts of the world and it was to be reasonably expected should these continue then Palestine would have shone like a beacon in the night to those affected.

    I also suspect, although I can't prove it, that the world had a collective guilty conscience in respect of the Holocaust, leading to the positive UN vote in 1948 and that sentiment was used rather than hard headed thinking. Or to put it another way, if the Holocaust had not occurred, it is very likely that history would have taken a different course.

    Part of the thinking of some of the pro-Jewish home-landers was that they believed in the biblical prophesy that one of the conditions for the "second coming" was that the Jews will have to have re-settled their ancient homeland. As it is with the USA, the protector of the state of Israel, declining in influence, there is a likelihood that the prophesy relating to Armageddon could come to fruition.

    Not only that but in the Moslem world there is sectarian strife between the Shi'ites and the Sunnis, as a result of two of Mohameds' sons taking different paths.

    As one who was brought up in the faiths of Catholicism, Methodism and C of E, I can't really understand what all the fuss is about - they are all variations on a theme.

    In my heart of hearts I sometimes think that England should not have split from the Catholic Church but then my head tells me that if this had not occurred then England would not have gone on to achieve the greatness it did but this could be the subject of another thread.

    Edited by mike Meehan
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    Posted
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark

    There is of course always the question of the current protests in Israel over cost of living. It is exactly the same problem as elsewhere in the Middle East. I gather Israelis are pretty fed up with a few rich boys not sharing their wealth in what has almost been a socialist country; I am thinking of kibbutz.

    It is surely too much to hope that Israel will experience a socialist revolution and put the religious fundamentalists in their place. Nah, I can't see that myself.

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    There is of course always the question of the current protests in Israel over cost of living. It is exactly the same problem as elsewhere in the Middle East. I gather Israelis are pretty fed up with a few rich boys not sharing their wealth in what has almost been a socialist country; I am thinking of kibbutz.

    It is surely too much to hope that Israel will experience a socialist revolution and put the religious fundamentalists in their place. Nah, I can't see that myself.

    Religious fundamentalists are a dangerous breed, whether they be moslem, jewish or christian and they usually get their way by putting the fear of God into more simple minded folk and threatening them with hell-fire and damnation - may the Lord protect us all from these.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Good old Daily Mail story today... links posted in Scotttish politcs thread. http://forum.netweat...ost__p__2128315

    The startling extent to which Labour misled the world over the controversial release of the Lockerbie bomber is exposed today in top-secret documents obtained by The Mail on Sunday.

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Lets not forget Pinochet and that woman before we start condemning Blair etc..

    Oh yes, such things are often conveniently forgotten; such is the nature of Westminster politics.

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