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Rumors that the SAS are on the ground trying to find Gaddafi. However there aren't any British troops involved?????

Reported by the Yahoo news service - we don't hear about everything they do or where they go but would imagine they are there at the request of the NTC.

http://uk.news.yahoo...-020013879.html

I just wonder - if they do catch him - whether we could put the reward of a million quid towards the national debt :)

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There is no other description for what is happening other than war crime and genocide.   Israel is technically the occupying force on Gaza and as such is duty bound to protect civilians.   Complet

The scenes in Gaza look like the aftermath of a nuclear bomb, utter devastation. The Israelis telling people to go back to their homes in northern Gaza as its "safe", what are they supposed to go back

Reported on the BBC too... An air strike on an army camp has killed three soldiers, the Syrian government says, blaming the US-led coalition for the attack. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

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Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Reported by the Yahoo news service - we don't hear about everything they do or where they go but would imagine they are there at the request of the NTC. http://uk.news.yahoo...-020013879.html I just wonder - if they do catch him - whether we could put the reward of a million quid towards the national debt :)

    hey one days free bombing.

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  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    A coup is not what I call a mandate. Furthermore throwing out the then constitution and then enforcing your ideology is not what call a mandate neither.

    The US did recognise the regime in late 1969.

    Some might say: Neither is a government elected on a minority vote?

    But, whatever the details, good riddance to Gaddafi!

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    Some might say: Neither is a government elected on a minority vote?

    But, whatever the details, good riddance to Gaddafi!

    Fingers crossed and let's hope that a free, fair and democratic government is establish in Libya now - as often commented on, the Libyans are well educated people and I am impressed with the standard that many speak English when interviewed.
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    Posted
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark

    Who the hell gave Gaddafi the mandate to rule his country for 42 years?

    I think maybe this is applying our modern European standards to a place that holds different values. Machiavelli would have laughed at us. Stalin certainly would, as did Hitler.

    Events in North Africa and Syria remind me very much of Herodotus' Histories. This sort of thing has been going on since antiquity. Just think, some outpost of the Athenian empire conspires with the enemy, so Athens sends a task force to deal with them. Everyone holds a very civilised and eloquent debate about the various aspects of the colony's conduct and past virtues, after which it is decided that all women and children are to be transported to Athens as slaves, while the men are to be thrown over a cliff.

    Morals are a human artifice, and we ought not to be surprised when both sides in a conflict hold that they have right on their side.

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  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    Morals are a human artifice, and we ought not to be surprised when both sides in a conflict hold that they have right on their side.

    Never a truer word!

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    I think maybe this is applying our modern European standards to a place that holds different values. Machiavelli would have laughed at us. Stalin certainly would, as did Hitler.

    Events in North Africa and Syria remind me very much of Herodotus' Histories. This sort of thing has been going on since antiquity. Just think, some outpost of the Athenian empire conspires with the enemy, so Athens sends a task force to deal with them. Everyone holds a very civilised and eloquent debate about the various aspects of the colony's conduct and past virtues, after which it is decided that all women and children are to be transported to Athens as slaves, while the men are to be thrown over a cliff.

    Morals are a human artifice, and we ought not to be surprised when both sides in a conflict hold that they have right on their side.

    The other things I wonder about is that under Ghaddifi tribal influences appeared to be quite strong and I hear that it is his tribe which is remaining loyal and sheltering him at the moment.

    The NTC are making noises about having a constitution and democracy but I can't see the tribal influences disappearing overnight. There is a lot of optimism at the moment but this would be in the euphoria of the virtual victory over Ghaddifi. Once this has died down they will need to get down to the more serious and sobering matter of determining their future and with the different factions involved it will need very careful consideration if it is to continue in an enlightened sense giving true freedoms and democracy.

    The other thing which concerns me is the nearly 1400 year old schism between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims which is still causing problems in Iraq, in fact over most of the Arab world to this day.

    A quick search indicates that Libya is mostly Sunni but the rights of the minorities would need to be protected in law to ensure that as far as possible any future internal strife is avoided.

    Libya's population is reported to be amongst the better educated in the Arab world, though this seems a bit of a paradox since most of them must have been educated under Ghaddifi's regime yet they are still asking for outside help to run the oil wells - confusing.

    From the point of view of the west it looks like we should hope for the best but fear the worst - we should be better placed to see what is happening a year or so down the road after they have had a chance to set up their new system.

    Edited by mike Meehan
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Events in North Africa and Syria remind me very much of Herodotus' Histories. This sort of thing has been going on since antiquity. Just think, some outpost of the Athenian empire conspires with the enemy, so Athens sends a task force to deal with them. Everyone holds a very civilised and eloquent debate about the various aspects of the colony's conduct and past virtues, after which it is decided that all women and children are to be transported to Athens as slaves, while the men are to be thrown over a cliff.

    Morals are a human artifice, and we ought not to be surprised when both sides in a conflict hold that they have right on their side.

    I'm not sure I agree with the Athenian analogy. the Athenian empire created the need for and provision of resources for a greatly enhanced public sector for warfare and administration. And then there was democracy. Officials appointed by lot and not particularly wealthy could not be expected to provide the equipment and personnel for many functions which may have been performed in other states by autocratic aristocrats, but the jobs still had to be done. Such as miners working the silver mines and thus the slaves from different parts of the empire. But these were men; women and children were not slaves in the modern terminology. It was actually thought better for the state to own slaves and do a job itself than put a job out to contract. It could of course be argued that is what black slavery was all about but I suspect it's more complex than that.

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  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark

    I'm not sure I agree with the Athenian analogy.

    I am not that well informed, but they could certainly be most barbaric, throwing people over cliff tops. Thucidides' history of the Peloponesian war is also a long recital of shifting alliances, reminiscent of tribal affairs.

    My point was though that morality varies from person to person and culture to culture. To think that others value our ideas is simply ethocentricism.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    I am not that well informed, but they could certainly be most barbaric, throwing people over cliff tops. Thucidides' history of the Peloponesian war is also a long recital of shifting alliances, reminiscent of tribal affairs.

    My point was though that morality varies from person to person and culture to culture. To think that others value our ideas is simply ethocentricism.

    Yes, I agree with your point and regarding Athens, think Sparta.

    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    There is no cause to doubt that, for whatever reason, the support of the people of Sirte for Gadaffi is genuine. That this means they deserve to be pounded into submission is less obvious to me. The disconnect between the UN mandate to protect civilians while facilitating negotiation, and NATO’s actual actions as the anti-Gadaffi forces’ air force and special forces, is startling.

    There is something so shocking in the Orwellian doublespeak of NATO on this point that I am severely dismayed. I suffer from that old springing eternal of hope, and am therefore always in a state of disappointment. I had hoped that the general population in Europe is so educated now that obvious outright lies would be rejected. I even hoped some journalists would seek to expose lies.

    I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

    The “rebels” are actively hitting Sirte with heavy artillery and Stalin’s organs; they are transporting tanks openly to attack Sirte. Yet any movement of tanks or artillery by the population of Sirte brings immediate death from NATO air strike.

    What exactly is the reason that Sirte’s defenders are threatening civilians but the artillery of their attackers – and the bombings themselves – are not? Plainly this is a nonsense. People in foreign ministries, NATO, the BBC and other media are well aware that it is the starkest lie and propaganda, to say the assault on Sirte is protecting civilians. But does knowledge of the truth prevent them from peddling a lie? No.

    It is worth reminding everyone something never mentioned, that UNSCR 1973 which established the no fly zone and mandate to protect civilians had

    “the aim of facilitating dialogue to lead to the political reforms necessary to find a peaceful and sustainable solution;”

    That is in Operative Para 2 of the Resolution

    Plainly the people of Sirte hold a different view to the “rebels” as to who should run the country. NATO have in effect declared being in Gadaffi’s political camp a capital offence. There is no way the massive assault on Sirte is “facilitating dialogue”. it is rather killing those who do not hold the NATO approved opinion. That is the actual truth. It is extremely plain.

    I have no time for Gadaffi. I have actually met him, and he really is nuts, and dangerous. There were aspects of his rule in terms of social development which were good, but much more that was bad and tyrannical. But if NATO is attacking him because he is a dictator, why is it not attacking Dubai, Bahrain, Syria, Burma, Zimbabwe, or Uzbekistan, to name a random selection of badly governed countries?

    “Liberal intervention” does not exist. What we have is the opposite; highly selective neo-imperial wars aimed at ensuring politically client control of key physical resources.

    Wars kill people. Women and children are dying now in Libya, whatever the sanitised media tells you. The BBC have reported it will take a decade to repair Libya’s infrastructure from the damage of war. That in an underestimate. Iraq is still decades away from returning its utilities to their condition in 2000.

    I strongly support the revolutions of the Arab Spring. But NATO intervention does not bring freedom, it brings destruction, degradation and permanent enslavement to the neo-colonial yoke. From now on, Libyans like us will be toiling to enrich western bankers. That, apparently, is worth to NATO the reduction of Sirte to rubble.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/08/sirte-the-apotheosis-of-liberal-intervention/

    And now we have news that a hardline Islamist has become de facto commander of the Tripoli armed forces:-

    http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=1&id=26357

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Islamic_Fighting_Group

    How much has been fabricated by NATO propaganda in order to create a pre-text to take control of Libya's massive under-ground water-resources, oil, gas,?

    Saddam Hussein was evil, he invaded his neighbors in wars that killed up to a million. He used Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD’s) in the form of poison gas on both his neighbors and his own people, killing tens of thousands. He was brutal and corrupt and when American tanks rolled into Iraq the Iraqi people refused to fight for him, simply put their weapons down and went home.

    Libya under Col. Gadaffi hasn’t invaded their neighbors. Gadaffi never used WMD’s on anyone, let alone his own people. As for Gadaffi being brutal, in Libya’s neighbor Algeria, the Algerian military fought a counterinsurgency for a decade in the 1990′s that witnessed the deaths of some 200,000 Algerians. Now that is brutal and nothing anywhere near this has happened in Libya.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/07/27/lies-of-the-libyan-war/

    I wonder who fed this to the BBC?

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    Speaking about barbarism - has anything really changed? - even up to the present day there have massacres of various sorts - the hundred plus people found dead in a hospital in Tripoli, many of whom were found bound or handcuffed - numerous tribal wars in Africa - the killing of the Kurds by Saddam Hussein - ethinic cleansing in former Yugoslavia - the holocaust in Nazi Germany - British concentration camps in South Africa at the time of the Boer War - the systematic extermination of parts of many indiginous people in many countries colonised by European powers including many native Americans by the Americans and so we can go on right through history.

    People are massacred for various reasons - the French chevaliers following the Battle of Agincourt because the English Army was so small and impoverished through disease that there simply wasn't the manpower the guard them - the same with 3000 of Saladin's Army at Accra (which the Arabs still remember to this present day) but it was thought to be military expedience - dead men can no longer fight.

    Or the case of an African tribe leader who ordered his impi to march over the edge of a cliff to demonstrate his power and the discipline of his warrior. Or in the case of European settlers killing the local indiginous people to gain control of the land.

    For political reasons - to elliminate one's enemies, or those thought to be a threat - for ideological reasons - the Nazis thought that the Jews, Slavs and gypsies etc were untermenschen.

    In short our civlisation is just a thin veneer and under the right (well should be wrong) circumstances quite a high proportion of us can descend into a state of taking the lives of others, as shown in the 1950's electric shock treatment experiment, where they gave what they thought was lethal electric shocks to actors playing a part in this experiment.

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    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/08/sirte-the-apotheosis-of-liberal-intervention/ And now we have news that a hardline Islamist has become de facto commander of the Tripoli armed forces:- http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=1&id=26357 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Islamic_Fighting_Group How much has been fabricated by NATO propaganda in order to create a pre-text to take control of Libya's massive under-ground water-resources, oil, gas,? http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/07/27/lies-of-the-libyan-war/ I wonder who fed this to the BBC?

    One of the first casualties of any war is "truth" - we have people on both sides cherry picking whatever snippets of information they can find to support their cause, often giving misleading information.

    I believe the best way to go forward is to stick to the facts which are largely undisputed - the first is that Colonel Ghaddafi was a dictator and had been so 42 years.

    The second is that he was actively involved in supporting terrorism by allowing members of the IRA to stay and train in Libya.

    The third was that WPc Yvonne Fletcher was shot dead whilst performing riot control duty outside the Libyan Embassy in London by someone from inside that embassy.

    We don't know the full story about the Lockerbie bombing by a long way but a Libyan was convicted of involvement in this - some quarters believed the conviction to be unsafe.

    There are suggestions that there was imprisonment without trial etc of his own people.

    The Libyan people from the west of the country rose up against Ghadaffi, as did other Arabs against their leaders in other Arab states. I think possibly that at the time this came as a surprise to the western nations because not long before that there was a process of "rehabilitating" Ghadaffi, so I find it hard to believe that this uprising was engineered by the west.

    As a leader Ghaddifi was puzzling - on one hand he supported outrages against the west and against his own people, as we are led to believe, yet he presided over a fairly affluent country with a good health and education system.

    I will agree however that there appears to have been worse outrages in Libya's neighbour, Algeria, with attrocities having been committed both by goverment troops and the rebels opposing them.

    It is all very puzzling and I wonder if we will ever get to truth of the matter because this will be written by the victors.

    Perhaps it is a re-run of the battle of Carthage without the audacious attack on the Roman Empire and anyway that was in Tunisia.

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  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    We don't know the full story about the Lockerbie bombing by a long way but a Libyan was convicted of involvement in this - some quarters believed the conviction to be unsafe.

    Consensus north of the Border was that the conviction was very unsafe at best, and he's very likely innocent. A pawn in a bigger game of power.

    Americans bribed the only 'witness' that could offer anything linking Megrahi to the bombing.

    http://www.firmmagaz...was_bribed.html

    Scottish Government is soon to release the findings of Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission on the trial; something they were unable to do before winning a majority in May due to opposition from Labour/Tories/Libs. They have now changed the law on this to allow such information to be released. Should make for interesting reading.

    I'll post this when it comes out. There is a high chance the MSM will not make much of it as they hold the SNP (ahem) 'personally responsible for the fact that Megrahi is not dead yet'.

    From a Scots viewpoint:

    http://www.newsnetsc...f-the-dead.html

    Hounding the innocent and dancing on the graves of the dead

    Edited by scottish skier
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  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Consensus north of the Border was that the conviction was very unsafe at best, and he's very likely innocent. A pawn in a bigger game of power.

    To be fair I don't think this was limited to north of the border. There were many south of the border, including myself, who thought this. The findings of Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission on the trial will indeed ne most interesting.

    Edited by weather ship
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  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    To be fair I don't think this was limited to north of the border. There were many south of the border, including myself, who thought this.

    I am glad that's the case; I'm honestly often not sure what does and does not get reported RE Scotland on the RUK MSM. Up here, it is 'Why haven't the SNP made sure Megrahi is dead by now' as the recent (pro-union obviously) MSM theme. Sales plummeting, but they persist.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    This is very important:-

    "While war games are not uncommon, the similarities between ‘Southern Mistral’ and ‘Operation Odyssey Dawn’ highlight just how many unanswered questions remain regarding our own military planning for Libya. The ‘Southern Mistral’ war games called for Great Britain-French air strikes against an unnamed dictator of a fictional country, “Southland.” The pretend attack was authorized by a pretend United Nations Security Council Resolution. The ‘Southern Mistral’ war games were set for March 21-25, 2011.

    On March 19, 2011, the United States joined France and Great Britain in an air attack against Muammar Gaddafi’s Libya pursuant to UN Security Council Resolution 1973.

    Scheduling a joint military exercise that ends up resembling real military action could be seen as remarkable planning by the French and British, but it also highlights questions regarding the United States’ role in planning for the war. We don’t know how long the attack on Libya has been in preparation, but Congress must find out. We don’t know who the rebels really represent and how they became armed, but Congress must find out. (Denis Kucinich, Kucinich: President Had Time to Consult with International Community, Not Congress? | Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich, Press Release, March 29, 2011)

    ‎"Nowhere does UNSCR 1973 mandate regime change or insist that Gadaffi must go as the end result of negotiations. If Gadaffi has accepted an AU-brokered ceasfire, then he is in compliance with the UN Resolution. If the rebels have refused such a ceasefire, then they are in breach of UNSCR 1973 and it is they who are endangering civilians." - Craig Murray.

    Edited by PersianPaladin
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  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark

    Consensus north of the Border was that the conviction was very unsafe at best, and he's very likely innocent. A pawn in a bigger game of power.

    Americans bribed the only 'witness' that could offer anything linking Megrahi to the bombing.

    http://www.firmmagaz...was_bribed.html

    Scottish Government is soon to release the findings of Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission on the trial; something they were unable to do before winning a majority in May due to opposition from Labour/Tories/Libs. They have now changed the law on this to allow such information to be released. Should make for interesting reading.

    I'll post this when it comes out. There is a high chance the MSM will not make much of it as they hold the SNP (ahem) 'personally responsible for the fact that Megrahi is not dead yet'.

    From a Scots viewpoint:

    http://www.newsnetsc...f-the-dead.html

    Hounding the innocent and dancing on the graves of the dead

    What webs we humans do weave. Following the links I found that m/v Estonia is claimed to have been sunk by the esplosion of illegal muntions aboard ship. Really, who would ship munitions without keeping safely separate the volatile bits from the main charges?

    I have to say that the Scots changing the law on criminal case information is very welcome, and it reflects badly on the old mainstream political parties that they oppose the publication of information in such a dubious case as this. That Libyan man's conviction seems to be tenuous at best.

    Don't forget to post that information when it is published scottish skier.

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    Posted
  • Location: Hanley, Stoke-on-trent
  • Location: Hanley, Stoke-on-trent

    Some disturbing footage. It really must be horrifying to be down there:-

    http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eBEqz3FWRc&feature=player_embedded

    Yes PP, compared to the holiday camp that those poor B*strds were enjoying in the warehouse & some of Gadaffi's other special places.
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  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Some disturbing footage. It really must be horrifying to be down there:-

    http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eBEqz3FWRc&feature=player_embedded

    On the other hand. © the Times.

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