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The Middle East...where Are Events Taking Us?


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Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Question when does a rebel cease to be a civilian?

    For me as soon as they take up arms.

    Question. Are we are supposed to be protecting civilians?

    Yes however this very hard when they're trapped by fighting.

    Question have the rebels also shot and hit civilians?

    The answer is almost certainly yes.

    Question. Should we be also protecting civilians when they're put at risk by rebel fire?

    The resolution seems to indicate as such.

    Question. Have we aligned ourselves with the rebels.

    Yes totally.

    Question. Is the actual policy in Libya regime change.

    Yes Totally.

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    There is no other description for what is happening other than war crime and genocide.   Israel is technically the occupying force on Gaza and as such is duty bound to protect civilians.   Complet

    The scenes in Gaza look like the aftermath of a nuclear bomb, utter devastation. The Israelis telling people to go back to their homes in northern Gaza as its "safe", what are they supposed to go back

    Reported on the BBC too... An air strike on an army camp has killed three soldiers, the Syrian government says, blaming the US-led coalition for the attack. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Obviously this is true, I don't intend to tarnish an entire nation !!

    I think that the loss of life should take precedent over the oil, but it does not mean the latter is not important. In the end, the 'rebels' / newly recognised Libyan transitional goverment need the oil flowing too - they need cash to govern/rebuild/support themselves.

    CIA in Afghanistan helping to train the Mujahideen was a little different - that was just done to fight a pretend war with Russia. No oil there. CIA did not really forsee the rise of islamic terrorism - at least in the form it has developed. The Taleban are predominantely not from Afghanistan, but rather from Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc; this influx, which began as a muslim cause to remove the Russians, grew slowly after this into something unexpected....

    There are very likely lots of what we might consider 'dodgy' dealings going on behind closed doors regarding the future of Libyan oil/regime change. However, there is no big conspiracy as some might suggest - the Libyans started this themselves when they saw it could be done, e.g. Egypt, Tunisia. However, unlike presdients of those nations, Gaddafi is actually two bricks short of a wall. If he had sense, he would have retired somewhere nice with lots of cash as soon as things started heading to the UN. His madness is what makes him dangerous.

    Reminds me a bit of Hilter in his last days, e.g. as portrayed in the film "Der Untergang" (The Downfall); completely mad, ordering fantasy brigades into action to save the day when there was nothing left and the russians were just down the street.

    The only way Gaddafi will fall is when those closest to him decide the game is well and truly up and it's time to bail. At the moment, I imagine most have exit plans in place and are just waiting until it's the right moment.

    Does not mean that this will not drag on. However, even though I know a number of Libyans which makes the whole thing a little closer to home, I would agree with them that western boots on the ground should be avoided at all costs - democracy/freedom comes from within. If you want AQ et al. to find an opening, putting non-muslim soldiers in there would be a perfect excuse.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Gadaffi won't go unless we employ ground troops which is a couple of stages away yet. In the meantime Syria behave in exactly the same way http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13167433 which doesn't seem to bother any of the major nations.

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    Posted
  • Location: Chipping Norton, 220mts /720ft asl
  • Location: Chipping Norton, 220mts /720ft asl

    Gadaffi won't go unless we employ ground troops which is a couple of stages away yet. In the meantime Syria behave in exactly the same way http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13167433 which doesn't seem to bother any of the major nations.

    Who cares. No oil in Syria !!

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Who cares. No oil in Syria !!

    There is, but nobody knows how much as it has not been explored in any detail. Unlikely to match Iraq, but similar geology, so potential. Currently produces around 0.5 mmbpd, largely for domestic uses. Discoveries of natural gas have got investment from ConocoPhillips et al. in the past.

    Problem is, it's a closed shop. Sanctions and a very secretive government mean little investment. It likely does ring true however that interest is less as governments are not sure what might or might not be there oil-wise and it is currently not making a contribution to global exports...

    http://www.codex99.com/cartography/images/saudi_geology_lg.jpg

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Perhaps the US and GB and France consider Syria too strong?

    Otherwise they fit all the bad boy lets blow em up check list.

    Support terror.

    Attack their own civilians.

    Have oil.

    It's a question for the earlier posters taking the high moral ground.

    It's also time that the Arabs kept their own house in order and had their own peace keeping force.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Syria now takes direct military action against civilians. Condemnation luke warm and once again we're left wondering what the arab league of nations is doing.

    In Libya coalition forces try and kill Gadaffi and fail.

    Our over stretched army cannot support SAS recruitment any more which is a serious matter and another embarrassment for Camerfool and Hague

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Hague finally admits that we're now bogged down and stuck in Libya. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13196875 Once again no exit plan and proper prior planning is going to prove costly. Hague and camerfool is also now making noises about Syria. Surely we can't involved in that one as well.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    Hague finally admits that we're now bogged down and stuck in Libya. http://www.bbc.co.uk...africa-13196875 Once again no exit plan and proper prior planning is going to prove costly. Hague and camerfool is also now making noises about Syria. Surely we can't involved in that one as well.

    Time we brought all our troops home from around the world.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Time we brought all our troops home from around the world.

    Well having wars abroad does distract the public from bad news on the home front.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Time we brought all our troops home from around the world.

    Somewhat unrealistic! Not going to happen is it....the British Army must have had troops overseas continually since its inception in the early 1700s!!!

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Somewhat unrealistic! Not going to happen is it....the British Army must have had troops overseas continually since its inception in the early 1700s!!!

    Not really we like cutting personnel so soon they won't be any left anyway.

    Anyway maybe some good news. Hama's and co make actually try and make a Government for the Palestinians.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Small, but interesting development in Libya.

    Gaddafi troops enter Tunisia while chasing rebels. Arrested by Tunisian troops.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13242157

    Clever idea by the outgunned rebels - attack then retreat just over the border into Tunisia. Tunisians support the rebels, ergo, they can do that but Gaddafi can't.

    However, if Gaddafi troops keep doing that, might be reason for Arab nations to take a more active role - sending your troops into a neighbouring country can be considered an act of War.

    Good development or bad? Hmmmmm.

    At least it seems the rebels are holding their own for now, even gaining small advances. Such little victories do much for the moral of my Libyan colleagues.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Why take the lead role while you can get the good old usa to do it for you. That way the usa gets the blame and you can carry on as before.

    Remember wikileaks and Arab nations asking America too take out Iran.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Why take the lead role while you can get the good old usa to do it for you. That way the usa gets the blame and you can carry on as before.

    Remember wikileaks and Arab nations asking America too take out Iran.

    Among the Iranians I work with, ~80% would love the west to topple their government.....

    Significant development on the Libya front - one of Gaddafi's sons killed:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13251570

    I can't say I am happy about this, even though he brought this upon himself and would not hesitate to do the same. Certainly, for me, targeting him and family members should not be the NATO goal if that is what's going on.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Well now fully bogged down in Libya Gen Richards wishes to widen nato attacks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13402945

    Edited by The PIT
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    Posted
  • Location: Chipping Norton, 220mts /720ft asl
  • Location: Chipping Norton, 220mts /720ft asl

    Dame Ann Leslie, quoted in The Times.

    " I feel so desperately sorry for 21st century young Arab men. Told by their mothers that they are princes of the Universe; told by their schoolteachers that their culture is history's finest flower; told by the Koran that they're God's warriors; told by their Imams that they're the torchbearers of the divine light; told by their political leaders that theirs are the greatest nations on Earth...they emerge as young men imagining that everything lies before them...And what awaits them? Unemployment, corruption, broken countries, broken economies and no sex. Nothing has turned out like they were promised. It must be profoundly bewildering."

    Having lived in Saudi for 5 years, this makes a lot of sense.

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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Syria dropping off the news and our army getting restless over the lack of progress in Libya. At the moment nato is going nowhere while civilians are probably still getting shot by both sides. Camerfool tries too bluff his way over regime change which wasn't the reason why the UN approved of the no fly zone.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Dame Ann Leslie, quoted in The Times.

    Having lived in Saudi for 5 years, this makes a lot of sense.

    Strangely, I find myself agreeing with you http://nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    While the quote was a bit of a sweeping generalisation, I can't disagree it has truth to it. We have a lot of middle eastern students (petroleum engineering), both Iranian Shia and Sunni Arab. Given that all are postgrads (postgrad institute), they tend to be very intelligent and most would agree to an extent with what was said in the quote, given long discussions I've had with them about our relative politics and culture. The ones that agree (the majority) tend to be not strongly religious, while the ones that would get offended by what was said tend to be strongly religous (at least in public) and linked to the regime in various ways.

    Thankfully, the former, more liberal, dominate and that is what we are seeing in Libya, Tunisa, Egypt - the younger generations are open minded, more liberal and know that they're being force-fed cr*p by goverments with religion as the choice tool of control. They want what people in Europe have - the freedom to be religious or not, hold hands with their parnter in public if they so wish, get a good job etc. All the stuff we take for granted.

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    • 2 weeks later...
    • 2 weeks later...
    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    Today, William Hague visited Libya and praised the rebels as noble freedom fighters.

    But yet....

    "Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime."

    http://www.telegraph...aeda-links.html

    Surely...that includes Al Qaeda fighters that Hague is praising? If so, this just adds onto the disgrace of the ILLEGAL intervention in Libya which has violated the UN resolution (http://www.craigmurr...03/illegal-war/).

    Anybody supporting this

    (i.e. back in winter of 2010) intervention has no moral fibre whatsoever. Edited by PersianPaladin
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Today, our Prime Minister William Hague visited Libya and praised the rebels as noble freedom fighters.

    Has Cameron resigned? When did this happen?http://nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    EDIT. I think everyone appreciates the complexity of the situation and that there is more to this (oil) than just helping out the libyan rebels out of pure kindness. However, as long as those Libyans that I know as friends and colleagues keep saying to me they want help removing Gaddafi, I find it difficult not to be supportive.

    Also, if this was all fully pre-planned, I'm impressed that it was so well co-ordinated with the ordinary libyan on the street, i.e. the whole uprising thing.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    Has Cameron resigned? When did this happen?http://nwstatic.co.uk/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    EDIT. I think everyone appreciates the complexity of the situation and that there is more to this (oil) than just helping out the libyan rebels out of pure kindness. However, as long as those Libyans that I know as friends and colleagues keep saying to me they want help removing Gaddafi, I find it difficult not to be supportive.

    Also, if this was all fully pre-planned, I'm impressed that it was so well co-ordinated with the ordinary libyan on the street, i.e. the whole uprising thing.

    It's all dirty and depressing to be honest. The more things "change", the more they stay the same.

    Well...there has been CIA support to opposition movements....for example, in Syria:-

    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/04/2011418114117731717.html

    Edited by PersianPaladin
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    It's all dirty and depressing to be honest. The more things "change", the more they stay the same.

    Well...there has been CIA support to opposition movements....for example, in Syria:-

    http://english.aljaz...4117731717.html

    Or, you could look at it this way....

    As Syria currently produces very little oil, and what it does produce is for domestic use, then support for opposition groups there must be for other purposes?

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