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The Middle East...where Are Events Taking Us?


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Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Revolution, great. Which country shall we pick? http://forum.netweather.tv/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

    Ok, you'll probably be wanting your own revolution....best be quick as options are dwindling fairly quickly.

    I'd suggest aligning yourself with an up and coming revolution which is bound to produce fireworks.

    Yemen would seem ideal...... Just today we've got Presidential guards loyal to President Ali Abdullah Saleh clashing in Mukalla with army units backing opposition groups. :bomb: Seems to be downhill from here.

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    There is no other description for what is happening other than war crime and genocide.   Israel is technically the occupying force on Gaza and as such is duty bound to protect civilians.   Complet

    The scenes in Gaza look like the aftermath of a nuclear bomb, utter devastation. The Israelis telling people to go back to their homes in northern Gaza as its "safe", what are they supposed to go back

    Reported on the BBC too... An air strike on an army camp has killed three soldiers, the Syrian government says, blaming the US-led coalition for the attack. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    By the way those that think Hamas and co stop firing rockets etc keep an eye on this tweet http://twitter.com/QassamCount

    Interesting while discussing the budget on the beeb yesterday they mentioned that the present new war is being paid from the current military budget. However I Dartmoor is probably more right on that one. Perhaps this is why we're keen that NATO takes over. Either way it seems the Arab League are being put aside.

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    Posted
  • Location: Kingsteignton, Devon
  • Weather Preferences: Cold in winter, snow, frost but warm summers please
  • Location: Kingsteignton, Devon

    By the way those that think Hamas and co stop firing rockets etc keep an eye on this tweet http://twitter.com/QassamCount

    Interesting while discussing the budget on the beeb yesterday they mentioned that the present new war is being paid from the current military budget. However I Dartmoor is probably more right on that one. Perhaps this is why we're keen that NATO takes over. Either way it seems the Arab League are being put aside.

    George Osbourne actually said in the budget speech it would be paid fully by the treasury reserves, not from the MoD budget. So not sure what the Beeb were on about... mind you Sky had the news before then so that may be where I picked it up from and yeah, I think the UK and US are pushing for NATO involvement to appease everyone from Turkey to Italy, France on the otherhand seem a bit put out by it, who knew Sarkozy would be such a hawk!

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    George Osbourne actually said in the budget speech it would be paid fully by the treasury reserves, not from the MoD budget. So not sure what the Beeb were on about... mind you Sky had the news before then so that may be where I picked it up from and yeah, I think the UK and US are pushing for NATO involvement to appease everyone from Turkey to Italy, France on the otherhand seem a bit put out by it, who knew Sarkozy would be such a hawk!

    I'm not sure that it's so much a case of Sarkozy being a hawk but more about the French...Nato relationship, which has been an issue since WWII. For much of the cold war France was not even a member of the Nato military command and clearly they remain somewhat nervous about the alliance.

    Rightly so in my opinion .....I see indecision and confusion on the horizon. I reckon a joint French-British command would be far more efficient.

    http://www.diploweb.com/The-evolution-of-NATO-and-France-s.html

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    I'm not sure that it's so much a case of Sarkozy being a hawk but more about the French...Nato relationship, which has been an issue since WWII. For much of the cold war France was not even a member of the Nato military command and clearly they remain somewhat nervous about the alliance.

    Reminds one of the famous Lyndon Johnson story.

    In 1966 upon being told that President Charles DeGaulle had taken France out of NATO and that all U.S. Troops must be evacuated off of French soil President Lyndon Johnson mentioned to Secretary of State Dean Rusk that he should ask DeGaulle about the Americans buried in France. Dean implied in his answer that that DeGaulle should not really be asked that in the meeting at which point President Johnson then told Secretary of State Dean Rusk:

    "Ask him about the cemeteries Dean!"

    That made it into a Presidential Order so he had to ask President De Gaulle.

    So at end of the meeting Dean did ask DeGaulle if his order to remove all U.S. troops from French soil also included the 60,000+ soldier buried in France from World War I and World War II.

    De Gaulle, embarrassed, got up and left and never answered.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Worrying developments this afternoon.

    Putting Libya to one side, we've now got violent unrest spreading in Syria.

    Meanwhile next door Israel looks poised to invade Gaza in retaliation for recent rocket and mortar attacks. I wonder if Europe and the US will be as ready to use military force to protect the civilians in Gaza as they are in Libya? :whistling:

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Pity they don't employ a UN peace keeping force to prevent Hama's firing rockets everyday. Oh they did but they were used as human shields by Hama's.

    Anyway Syria now that is a huge bad boy in the Middle East state sponsor of terrorism must be a good candidate for a no fly zone.

    Actually why not have done with it and invade all of the middle east.

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    Posted
  • Location: swansea craig cefn parc 160 m asl
  • Location: swansea craig cefn parc 160 m asl

    Pity they don't employ a UN peace keeping force to prevent Hama's firing rockets everyday. Oh they did but they were used as human shields by Hama's.

    Anyway Syria now that is a huge bad boy in the Middle East state sponsor of terrorism must be a good candidate for a no fly zone.

    Actually why not have done with it and invade all of the middle east.

    Yes i agree pit they need volunteers to fly spitfire thats all thats left ,we knew this would happen we all love freedom and democracy, once Saudia Arabia falls total anarchy in the region lets get out before all hell breaks loose.
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    Posted
  • Location: Kingsteignton, Devon
  • Weather Preferences: Cold in winter, snow, frost but warm summers please
  • Location: Kingsteignton, Devon

    Yes i agree pit they need volunteers to fly spitfire thats all thats left ,we knew this would happen we all love freedom and democracy, once Saudia Arabia falls total anarchy in the region lets get out before all hell breaks loose.

    If Saudi goes we won't be able to afford the fuel to put in the planes. Ironic huh.

    As for Israel, well Hamas seem to deserve all they get imo, its getting to a point again, and they did bring it on themselves. Just wish Israel would use better targeted systems than artillery.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    If Saudi goes we won't be able to afford the fuel to put in the planes. Ironic huh.

    As for Israel, well Hamas seem to deserve all they get imo, its getting to a point again, and they did bring it on themselves. Just wish Israel would use better targeted systems than artillery.

    Like what. Air Strikes bad ground troops bad missiles bad. problem is Hamas are cowards and haven't the guts to come out and fight directly they prefer to hide behind women and children as it makes great propaganda when the children get killed.

    You know if we didn't need oil we'd just let them get on with it and nobody would bat an eye lid.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Like what. Air Strikes bad ground troops bad missiles bad. problem is Hamas are cowards and haven't the guts to come out and fight directly they prefer to hide behind women and children as it makes great propaganda when the children get killed.

    You know if we didn't need oil we'd just let them get on with it and nobody would bat an eye lid.

    Trouble with Israel is they go OTT. White phosphorus shells into residential areas??......nice touch!!

    In 2008, up to 27th Dec, the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killed no-one. That was wrong and action to sort Hamas out was fair enough.....but.... in return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza! After the Israeli attacks Hamas rockets killed 3 Israeli civilians.

    and now Israeli Ministers are threatening a harsher response this time than in 2008!!

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    Posted
  • Location: Napton on the Hill Warwickshire 500ft
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and heatwave
  • Location: Napton on the Hill Warwickshire 500ft

    Worrying developments this afternoon.

    Putting Libya to one side, we've now got violent unrest spreading in Syria.

    Meanwhile next door Israel looks poised to invade Gaza in retaliation for recent rocket and mortar attacks. I wonder if Europe and the US will be as ready to use military force to protect the civilians in Gaza as they are in Libya? :whistling:

    You sound cynical ?

    USA to impose a no fly zone over Isreal see here

    http://www.freewebs.com/1969clangers/home.htm

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Trouble with Israel is they go OTT. White phosphorus shells into residential areas??......nice touch!!

    In 2008, up to 27th Dec, the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killed no-one. That was wrong and action to sort Hamas out was fair enough.....but.... in return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza! After the Israeli attacks Hamas rockets killed 3 Israeli civilians.

    and now Israeli Ministers are threatening a harsher response this time than in 2008!!

    That is becuase Hama's refuse to let civilians flee and use them as shields in some cases while still they engaging the enemy. Difficult to deal with.

    Anyway looking more serious in Syria and this could be bad for the Hama's as this may reduce the flow of arms. If they fall and Iran goes later Hamas may find it a little harder to get the weapons it needs.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    You sound cynical ?

    moi??

    Only in the evenings, I'm usually a lot more optimistic in the mornings (unless my kids are being particularly troublesome!)

    Historic events all over the Middle east and happening so quickly that it's difficult to keep up. US foreign policy seems to be in disarray and is certainly weakening some of its oldest alliances in the region. Saudi Arabia in particular saw the US abandon Mubarak in Egypt and probably feels it can no longer rely on the US as its protector. Hence the Saudi move into Bahrain, apparently without the previously required nod from the US.

    The hesitant hands off approach from Obama with regard to the various uprisings means that the shape of the middle east is changing forever. Previously we had some form of order with the strong US support of various ethically questionnable authoritarian regimes. That support is waning now and events which are unfolding, seem to be both very unpredictable and dangerous.

    Imagine chucking all of the following into a big pot....giving it a big stir and see what happens! :bomb:

    Libya, Syria, Gaza, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Oman, Tunisia, Jordan, then add a pinch of Israel and Iran! :shok:

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Mean while regime change backed by western forces carries on in Libya http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12869658

    Who's next ???

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Nato to take over control of the war in Libya. This maybe bad news for the regime change policy which is causing some rumblings of discontent in the UN.

    This may mean that rebels suddenly find themselves without air support when they engage Gadaffi's army.

    Yeman some Islamic nutters have managed to blow up a factory making arms. I guess it was an accident since they had only recently taken over the factory. Hopefully they'll continue blowing themselves up.

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    Posted
  • Location: South-West Norfolk
  • Location: South-West Norfolk

    Nato to take over control of the war in Libya. This maybe bad news for the regime change policy which is causing some rumblings of discontent in the UN.

    This may mean that rebels suddenly find themselves without air support when they engage Gadaffi's army.

    Yeman some Islamic nutters have managed to blow up a factory making arms. I guess it was an accident since they had only recently taken over the factory. Hopefully they'll continue blowing themselves up.

    I doubt it, as the main players will 'sell' it to those who are rumbling, in an appropriate way to keep them on side. Point is, the resolution allows them to take all measures to protect civilians - as long as Gaddafi is in power, there is a threat.

    More to the point, just in case, it's quite clear that the coalition hit his forces very hard last night, and will do the same again tonight, probably even more so.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
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  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Mean while regime change backed by western forces carries on in Libya http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12869658

    Who's next ???

    Haven't we been here before with regime change backed by the west?? Didn't "the west" back regime change against the Soviets in Afghanistan? Where did that lead?

    Do we never learn anything?

    Point is, the resolution allows them to take all measures to protect civilians - as long as Gaddafi is in power, there is a threat.

    Even more to the point: if Gaddafi isn't in power who will be in power...will it be better than Gaddafi, can you promise this???????

    Will one lesser threat be eliminated only to be replaced by another greater threat??

    Be careful what you wish for.

    I have no doubt that Gaddafi should be removed but for what, for who??

    Trouble with Israel is they go OTT. White phosphorus shells into residential areas??......nice touch!!

    In 2008, up to 27th Dec, the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killed no-one. That was wrong and action to sort Hamas out was fair enough.....but.... in return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza! After the Israeli attacks Hamas rockets killed 3 Israeli civilians.

    and now Israeli Ministers are threatening a harsher response this time than in 2008!!

    Honestly Kiwi what were you thinking...you're on the list now, you'll be tagged as anti-semitic in the western media for flagging this up.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
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  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Big test for the regime change policy. Do they back rebels unofficially officially or come out officially officially in support of the rebels.

    Murmurs of arms being supplied coming from the US which must be music to Cameron's ears.

    Other rumours about a split Libya which of course will end up being a source of conflict for years to come.

    At the moment an expensive stalemate approaching.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Now the regime change plan is failing as Gadaffi's forces strike back and advance rapidly. Rebels now demanding arms. The coalition now has another problem. Both armies using the same type of vehicles and clothing so air forces can't tell the goodies from the baddies.

    Coalition problem is now they're facing demands for weapons. This will training and ground forces in advisory role. The other problem is that they have sidelined the Arab league.

    Overall poorly thought out action by Cameron and Hague if they're not careful they'll be hugely embarrassed internationally. Too safe face arming is the next most likely course of action.

    Another thought if the rebels are forced to surrender should we and France take them in as their lives could be at risk.

    Poor old Cameron at least Blair won his war....

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    Posted
  • Location: Kingsteignton, Devon
  • Weather Preferences: Cold in winter, snow, frost but warm summers please
  • Location: Kingsteignton, Devon

    Now the regime change plan is failing as Gadaffi's forces strike back and advance rapidly. Rebels now demanding arms. The coalition now has another problem. Both armies using the same type of vehicles and clothing so air forces can't tell the goodies from the baddies.

    Coalition problem is now they're facing demands for weapons. This will training and ground forces in advisory role. The other problem is that they have sidelined the Arab league.

    Overall poorly thought out action by Cameron and Hague if they're not careful they'll be hugely embarrassed internationally. Too safe face arming is the next most likely course of action.

    Another thought if the rebels are forced to surrender should we and France take them in as their lives could be at risk.

    Poor old Cameron at least Blair won his war....

    How can you say it was poorly thought out? Are you an expert on the middle east and armed forces all of a sudden?

    That said, a better solution than arming, what can only be described as a badly organised rebel group, would be advisory roles from the Arab League with UN backing. That or come to arrangement to split the country, those who like him and those that don't. Like it used to be.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    How can you say it was poorly thought out? Are you an expert on the middle east and armed forces all of a sudden?

    That said, a better solution than arming, what can only be described as a badly organised rebel group, would be advisory roles from the Arab League with UN backing. That or come to arrangement to split the country, those who like him and those that don't. Like it used to be.

    Well for a start they haven't an exit strategy which was one the biggest problems with the Iraq war. They've even admitted that. The side lining of Arab league who weren't even at the recent meeting in London. The Arab league clearly didn't expect how Britain America and co liberally interpreted the UN resolution. This can only increase suspicion with the West.

    Splitting the country is the worse thing you can do and will ensure conflict for years to come over disputed borders.

    If the rebels can hold on they will get more organised due to better experience.

    Supplying weapons well that's clearly putting you body behind regime change hence the hesitation. If we do that will Gadaffi allow Islamic extremists to join him to fight the West???

    Got to admit I'm impressed how Gadaffi has changed tactics. Been outwitted by a mad man must be really annoying to Cameron. Luckily he hasn't been in power long enough like Blair had been when he started the Iraq war. If he had I dread to think what the next step would be.

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    Posted
  • Location: Kingsteignton, Devon
  • Weather Preferences: Cold in winter, snow, frost but warm summers please
  • Location: Kingsteignton, Devon

    Interesting developments with the defection, which is a bit of a coup for the coalition, and UK in particular (since he came here and not France/US) Which is interesting, considering he must know he will face questions over the Lockerbie bombing and murder of the WPC Yvonne Fletcher.

    Going back to the earlier point ref splitting Libya, this is how it was originally, and the old borders could be used, you forget that loyalities lie less with nations and more with regions in much of northern Africa.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Rebels still in big trouble although buoyed by the hint of CIA involvement. Probably not a good thing though. Could this be the first war lost without air superiority ??

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Rebels still in big trouble although buoyed by the hint of CIA involvement. Probably not a good thing though. Could this be the first war lost without air superiority ??

    You mean with, rather than without surely?

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