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nick sussex

The Human Rights Act

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Of course we all are thankful that we live in Europe with many human rights that are afforded to us but has this gone too far in not allowing the UK government to deport certain people.

Much of the furore regarding this has been to do with guarantees by certain countries not to torture individuals deported from the UK, the judiciary basically does not accept many of these guarantees, even when agreements have been signed.

Should we really care if people who have been inciting hatred against the people of the UK go back and are then tortured?

Are the Human Rights of law abiding citizens being disregarded because of this Act, basically the right to not get blown up or injured by a radicalized person who is being preached to and brainwashed by the language of hate!

IMO preaching hate against your adopted country should be an Act Of Treason and you should lose your human rights and subsequently deported! It surely is a disgrace that certain people have gone to the UK, creamed the benefit system to pay for countless children and then incited hatred against the very people who welcomed them in. The British people are paying out of their taxes to keep people who would be happy to see death and carnage on the streets.

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Of course we all are thankful that we live in Europe with many human rights that are afforded to us but has this gone too far in not allowing the UK government to deport certain people.

Much of the furore regarding this has been to do with guarantees by certain countries not to torture individuals deported from the UK, the judiciary basically does not accept many of these guarantees, even when agreements have been signed.

Should we really care if people who have been inciting hatred against the people of the UK go back and are then tortured?

Are the Human Rights of law abiding citizens being disregarded because of this Act, basically the right to not get blown up or injured by a radicalized person who is being preached to and brainwashed by the language of hate!

IMO preaching hate against your adopted country should be an Act Of Treason and you should lose your human rights and subsequently deported! It surely is a disgrace that certain people have gone to the UK, creamed the benefit system to pay for countless children and then incited hatred against the very people who welcomed them in. The British people are paying out of their taxes to keep people who would be happy to see death and carnage on the streets.

Humans rights have always been biased towards the law breaker.

I don't really care if people inciting violence and terrorism are tortured they had a choice to be law abiding and decided against it. If they knew that could be shipped back they may well have acted very differently. However do we have to ship them back to the country of origin? Can we give them a ticket to a country of their choice instead? That way they wouldn't be tortured unless they were naughty boys or girls again.

Fact is sticking them in jail isn't working as they're building an extremist organisation with the jails.

So my own view give them an air ticket to the country of choice then they're someone's else's problem.

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Fact is sticking them in jail isn't working as they're building an extremist organisation with the jails.

Plus it cost the taxpayer thousands a week to keep them in jail

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Humans rights have always been biased towards the law breaker.

I don't really care if people inciting violence and terrorism are tortured they had a choice to be law abiding and decided against it. If they knew that could be shipped back they may well have acted very differently. However do we have to ship them back to the country of origin? Can we give them a ticket to a country of their choice instead? That way they wouldn't be tortured unless they were naughty boys or girls again.

Fact is sticking them in jail isn't working as they're building an extremist organisation with the jails.

So my own view give them an air ticket to the country of choice then they're someone's else's problem.

I do.

I wouldn't torture Tony Blair for committing war crimes and terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan. No matter how much I hated him.

And torture is pointless anyway.

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It's not acceptable to condone torture as a state, period. Aren't we better than that?

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It's not acceptable to condone torture as a state, period. Aren't we better than that?

We wouldn't be doing the torture and there's no guarantee that they would be. They could well be lying. Like I said give them a ticket elsewhere then it's their choice.

The Human rights law is also used as an excuse too stop people getting the care that they need as well.

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It's not acceptable to condone torture as a state, period. Aren't we better than that?

Latest from MI6 Headquarters............

Q, Now Mr Laden, you say a dirty bomb,or something equally not very nice will explode soon, somewhere in europe?

A. Yes it will,but you will never know where,. unless you join Net Weather and play guess the city.

Q.Please tell us which city will suffer thousands of deaths as a result of your device?

A. No, you infidel dogs,I want you all to die.

Q.If this is your attitude Mr Laden, you leave us with no choice but to....................

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Latest from MI6 Headquarters............

A. No, you infidel dogs,I want you all to die.

Q.If this is your attitude Mr Laden, you leave us with no choice but to....................

Send you to the pc lovers holiday camp where they think you're a swell guy just misunderstood.

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It's not acceptable to condone torture as a state, period. Aren't we better than that?

We're not condoning it, but why should British people be put at risk because the courts are more concerned for the Human Rights of some individual who has somehow ended up in the UK than what might happen with this person left to incite hatred. Put it this way if we went to Saudi and started up a hate Saudi campaign would they reward us with benefits and leave to stay in that country!

If people don't like western values and think we're all infidels then IMO they can get lost back to somewhere where they feel comfortable. I'm all for human rights where people are deserving of these but IMO if you go down the road of organising marches and starting up hate campaigns against people of the UK then you lose these.

If this sounds harsh then I suspect it's a sentiment shared by the majority of British people.

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If you want rights then you have to accept the responsibilities too. People need to show some respect for the country in which they live.

Norman Tebbit (not a man I particular like) made a remark in the 1980's about the 'cricket test'. I will be cheering on the All Blacks in the Rugby World Cup in 2011!

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We're not condoning it, but why should British people be put at risk because the courts are more concerned for the Human Rights of some individual who has somehow ended up in the UK than what might happen with this person left to incite hatred. Put it this way if we went to Saudi and started up a hate Saudi campaign would they reward us with benefits and leave to stay in that country!

If people don't like western values and think we're all infidels then IMO they can get lost back to somewhere where they feel comfortable. I'm all for human rights where people are deserving of these but IMO if you go down the road of organising marches and starting up hate campaigns against people of the UK then you lose these.

If this sounds harsh then I suspect it's a sentiment shared by the majority of British people.

I can understand your sentiments there. There are always extremists that get attention by the media.

But British values should mean that the country does not torture others or commit acts of aggression in the middle-east that angers so many (if you install dictators, and then invade countries and kill peoples' entire families they may well get a bit angry?).

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The problem for me is simple, if you are condoning the use of torture, you are debasing those that have given their lives protecting this countries freedoms and the values that make this a great country. I wonder how many people are tortured world wide who are innocent of any crime, are we saying its ok to attack people based on information gained under duress. Any small knowledge of history will tell you that tortured people will tell their tormentors anything they think they might want to hear, regardless of whether its true or not and many innocent men women and children have consequently been killed on the basis of false information, this is still happening today. How many civilians have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan disguised under the phrase collateral damage but in reality killed through false information. Like many, I also think its wrong to have people in this country plotting against their fellow citizens. I don’t like seeing women swaddled from head to foot. I don’t like seeing children brain washed into believing that they must behave in a certain way to satisfy the requirements of a higher being and I wish we could get rid of all religious fanatics. But we still have to make sure this country stands for the best of humanity and not get dragged down to the level of tyrannies and countries run by religious extremists. We all get angry, some of the antics of people that we have invited into this country make my blood boil and I wish they would go away, but that’s a price worth paying to live in a free country. I find it hideous just how many have expressed the idea that its ok to send people away to be tortured, just so long as we don’t have to get our hands dirty, in a way that’s worse than saying we should do it ourselves. Some Arab can do the dirty work, after all we don’t want to hear the screaming and we can go home to the wife and kids without having to wash the blood off our hands first, its quite disgusting.

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I have one simple observation: there are no rights without responsibility. Fail to uphold that responsibly and you lose your rights.

One fundamental responsibility is to abide by commonly agreed laws.

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I have one simple observation: there are no rights without responsibility. Fail to uphold that responsibly and you lose your rights.

One fundamental responsibility is to abide by commonly agreed laws.

I would add to that, If you don't agree with the way this country is run, or you don't want to abide by its principles, then don't come here. The problem is of course determining what are those principles are, and the fact that many native British citizens don't want to abide by them either. Maybe as well as a bill of rights, we should have a bill responsibilities and be clear about what aspects of society those rights and responsibilities pertain to. There are always going to be grey areas, parents and children for instance. No parent wants the state intervening with how they bring up their children, many would maintain that they should be free to decide what kind of education their children receive. A Catholic or Muslim parent may maintain that they have the right to send their children to a faith school that teaches science, but under the constraints of what it says in an holy book. But should the state have a responsibility over the parents, so as to make sure the child has a broader understanding of the subject.

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The problem for me is simple, if you are condoning the use of torture, you are debasing those that have given their lives protecting this countries freedoms and the values that make this a great country. I wonder how many people are tortured world wide who are innocent of any crime, are we saying its ok to attack people based on information gained under duress. Any small knowledge of history will tell you that tortured people will tell their tormentors anything they think they might want to hear, regardless of whether its true or not and many innocent men women and children have consequently been killed on the basis of false information, this is still happening today. How many civilians have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan disguised under the phrase collateral damage but in reality killed through false information. Like many, I also think its wrong to have people in this country plotting against their fellow citizens. I don’t like seeing women swaddled from head to foot. I don’t like seeing children brain washed into believing that they must behave in a certain way to satisfy the requirements of a higher being and I wish we could get rid of all religious fanatics. But we still have to make sure this country stands for the best of humanity and not get dragged down to the level of tyrannies and countries run by religious extremists. We all get angry, some of the antics of people that we have invited into this country make my blood boil and I wish they would go away, but that’s a price worth paying to live in a free country. I find it hideous just how many have expressed the idea that its ok to send people away to be tortured, just so long as we don’t have to get our hands dirty, in a way that’s worse than saying we should do it ourselves. Some Arab can do the dirty work, after all we don’t want to hear the screaming and we can go home to the wife and kids without having to wash the blood off our hands first, its quite disgusting.

Your first sentence interests me,

now what if some of those people you say gave their lives protecting freedom and values had actually committed torture.

Now what if during the dark days of WW2 soldiers of the British Army captured a unit from the Waffen SS who, earlier that day had retreated through a local village and in their enthusiasm for their cause had raped and tortured and then murdered every man,woman and child,do you think our brave freedom fighters gave them a smoke and a pat on the back,or did they beat the crap out of them,maybe trying to find out the location and direction of other boy scout units heading to the NEXT village.

After the interrogation or torture,answers or not,they were executed.

So is torture to be condoned?

Well no,but in extreme times,and dealing with extreme people,sometimes harsh language just wont cut the mustard.

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So is torture to be condoned?

Well no,but in extreme times,and dealing with extreme people,sometimes harsh language just wont cut the mustard.

Well you could well be right about harsh language not working, but as I've pointed out, torture also has a poor record of achieving the desired result. And as I also pointed out it has a long record of leading to the death of innocents.

Of course in war bad things happen in the heat of the moment, but that’s not the same as pulling out somebody’s fingernails in cold blood for instance, then going home to make tea for the kids.

Also I would not say that we in the UK are living in extreme times, the terror threat in the UK during the 70s was much greater than it is now. We are however dealing with some extreme people, of that there is no doubt and if those people are prepared to live by the sword then they must deal with the consequences of that. However cold blooded torture, is stooping to their level, has no track record of working, helps those people to recruit, and has the potential to lead to the deaths of many innocent people. We must remember just how committed to their cause these people are. They do not view events in the world as we do, they feel their cause is a just one and are prepared to die for it, or be tortured for. What we have to do is isolate the more extreme elements, seek to address their sense of injustice, while at the same time defending our lives and liberty and way of life. And that will not be easy, and I most certainly don't have the answers. I am however proud of my county, proud of the people who have laid down their lives to defend my countries values. Values that I hold dear and would fight for if I had to. For me torturing people either by ourselves or by proxy’s betrays those values, is anti British and everything we stand for. These people are uncompromising in what they believe in, we must be the same.

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I totally understand your points weathereater, i think broadening the subject the ending of faith schools IMO would at least help a child at least gain tolerance for other religions and growing up perhaps not so easily swayed by the hatemongers in society.

Going back to my original post in an ideal world there would be no torture but equally its appalling that people who have adopted the UK as their home are peddling hate against their fellow citizens and inciting others to kill and maim, these people IMO do not deserve the human rights of the UK as they have by their actions shown that they support terrorism and murder, it might sound harsh and brutal but if they are returned to their home country and then subsequently tortured that is the penalty they face.

Most people who move to another country accept they have to abide by the laws of that country otherwise they are likely to be deported, is it the UKs fault that they come from some corrupt brutal country in which torture exists which then precludes them from being sent back.

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I totally understand your points weathereater, i think broadening the subject the ending of faith schools IMO would at least help a child at least gain tolerance for other religions and growing up perhaps not so easily swayed by the hatemongers in society.

Going back to my original post in an ideal world there would be no torture but equally its appalling that people who have adopted the UK as their home are peddling hate against their fellow citizens and inciting others to kill and maim, these people IMO do not deserve the human rights of the UK as they have by their actions shown that they support terrorism and murder, it might sound harsh and brutal but if they are returned to their home country and then subsequently tortured that is the penalty they face.

Most people who move to another country accept they have to abide by the laws of that country otherwise they are likely to be deported, is it the UKs fault that they come from some corrupt brutal country in which torture exists which then precludes them from being sent back.

I've heard this argument used by people in America who prefer military tribunals for terrorist suspects, rather than the actual Constitutional procedure of public trials. It's a sad indictment of people willing to give up their principles and it drags us all down.

I am against the actions of these hatemongers, and if they incite violence then yes they should be punished for it. But we must understand, that the moral highground of this nation was lost when our "leaders" adopted policies that are criminal too.

The media is very good at making people forget the true extent of the problems that are out there. People tend to develop a lot of amnesia if they don't happen to collect archives of disturbing reports that are rapidly buried by the media. It's very sad. We virtually have no principle of honour and citizenship left. We've become anaesthetized almost.

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I've heard this argument used by people in America who prefer military tribunals for terrorist suspects, rather than the actual Constitutional procedure of public trials. It's a sad indictment of people willing to give up their principles and it drags us all down.

I am against the actions of these hatemongers, and if they incite violence then yes they should be punished for it. But we must understand, that the moral highground of this nation was lost when our "leaders" adopted policies that are criminal too.

The media is very good at making people forget the true extent of the problems that are out there. People tend to develop a lot of amnesia if they don't happen to collect archives of disturbing reports that are rapidly buried by the media. It's very sad. We virtually have no principle of honour and citizenship left. We've become anaesthetized almost.

I do agree with you PP regarding recent foreign policy which has made the UK less safe,and would certainly always want public trials and not those sham military hearings, as we know the media has cycles of news and Iraq is no longer interesting for them anymore!

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I totally understand your points weathereater, i think broadening the subject the ending of faith schools IMO would at least help a child at least gain tolerance for other religions and growing up perhaps not so easily swayed by the hatemongers in society.

Going back to my original post in an ideal world there would be no torture but equally its appalling that people who have adopted the UK as their home are peddling hate against their fellow citizens and inciting others to kill and maim, these people IMO do not deserve the human rights of the UK as they have by their actions shown that they support terrorism and murder, it might sound harsh and brutal but if they are returned to their home country and then subsequently tortured that is the penalty they face.

Most people who move to another country accept they have to abide by the laws of that country otherwise they are likely to be deported, is it the UKs fault that they come from some corrupt brutal country in which torture exists which then precludes them from being sent back.

Hi Nick, I trust we will hear plenty from you in the model threads during the winter, its always worth reading your views.

I think that PP is right in his assessment and right to highlight the statement he did. The Iraq war was patently illegal and even a small knowledge of the situation in Iraq since the first gulf war would lead one to suspect that Iraq was in no position to be significant threat at that time. Of course one of the most peddled reasons that was given for toppling Saddam, was that he was happy to torture his own people. We did not do that kind of thing, we are a civilized country and he was a barbarian, etc etc. Its no wonder that we get accused of hypocrisy. And of course we are not sending people back to face their own system of justice, we are colluding with the Americans to send people to third party countries, where they are being tortured. Another reason given for the Iraq invasion was to install democracy, to re-write their constitution, to make stuff like torture illegal. In reality we know that the invasion of Iraq was about Americas standing as a power, it was also about economics and the control of oil.

As for faith Schools, they should never be part of the state system, but I’m sure that faith schools will be the biggest beneficiaries of the educational side of the governments big society plans.

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Hi Nick, I trust we will hear plenty from you in the model threads during the winter, its always worth reading your views.

I think that PP is right in his assessment and right to highlight the statement he did. The Iraq war was patently illegal and even a small knowledge of the situation in Iraq since the first gulf war would lead one to suspect that Iraq was in no position to be significant threat at that time. Of course one of the most peddled reasons that was given for toppling Saddam, was that he was happy to torture his own people. We did not do that kind of thing, we are a civilized country and he was a barbarian, etc etc. Its no wonder that we get accused of hypocrisy. And of course we are not sending people back to face their own system of justice, we are colluding with the Americans to send people to third party countries, where they are being tortured. Another reason given for the Iraq invasion was to install democracy, to re-write their constitution, to make stuff like torture illegal. In reality we know that the invasion of Iraq was about Americas standing as a power, it was also about economics and the control of oil.

As for faith Schools, they should never be part of the state system, but I’m sure that faith schools will be the biggest beneficiaries of the educational side of the governments big society plans.

Oh yes the big society! lol It sounds good but thats it, I really wish a politician would have the guts to stand up and say no to faith schools in any form. Whats wrong with a child learning a blend of the main religions. Personally i'm not religious but if we're to have this in schools then at least let it have a broad base.

I don't dispute that western foreign policy has caused alot of anger in the Middle East, there are loads of double standards and this collusion in renditions is very bad. I disagree with that but i think this is a separate issue from the deportation of people back to their original homeland, my gripe is restricted to a small band of people who are trying to radicalize individuals in the UK.

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I've heard this argument used by people in America who prefer military tribunals for terrorist suspects, rather than the actual Constitutional procedure of public trials. It's a sad indictment of people willing to give up their principles and it drags us all down.

I am against the actions of these hatemongers, and if they incite violence then yes they should be punished for it. But we must understand, that the moral highground of this nation was lost when our "leaders" adopted policies that are criminal too.

The media is very good at making people forget the true extent of the problems that are out there. People tend to develop a lot of amnesia if they don't happen to collect archives of disturbing reports that are rapidly buried by the media. It's very sad. We virtually have no principle of honour and citizenship left. We've become anaesthetized almost.

Well said, that man!

You've summed-up my own feelings precisely! :good:

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Well you could well be right about harsh language not working, but as I've pointed out, torture also has a poor record of achieving the desired result. And as I also pointed out it has a long record of leading to the death of innocents.

Of course in war bad things happen in the heat of the moment, but that’s not the same as pulling out somebody’s fingernails in cold blood for instance, then going home to make tea for the kids.

Also I would not say that we in the UK are living in extreme times, the terror threat in the UK during the 70s was much greater than it is now. We are however dealing with some extreme people, of that there is no doubt and if those people are prepared to live by the sword then they must deal with the consequences of that. However cold blooded torture, is stooping to their level, has no track record of working, helps those people to recruit, and has the potential to lead to the deaths of many innocent people. We must remember just how committed to their cause these people are. They do not view events in the world as we do, they feel their cause is a just one and are prepared to die for it, or be tortured for. What we have to do is isolate the more extreme elements, seek to address their sense of injustice, while at the same time defending our lives and liberty and way of life. And that will not be easy, and I most certainly don't have the answers. I am however proud of my county, proud of the people who have laid down their lives to defend my countries values. Values that I hold dear and would fight for if I had to. For me torturing people either by ourselves or by proxy’s betrays those values, is anti British and everything we stand for. These people are uncompromising in what they believe in, we must be the same.

your first sentence,

torture = poor results,how do you know this? I dont.

Again you say a long record of leading to the death of innocents,can you give me access to this long record?

Your second sentence,regarding heat of the moment,in the example I gave it would have taken place over a period of time and with some thought.Also, as bad as it sounds the actions taken would have been enjoyed.

To your main point,when I referred to extreme times, I was referring to WW2 and not now.

Just to add, I cant recal the IRA Blowing themselves up on trains and busses.

Committed to their cause as you say, now this is the whole point,you cant reason with these people,you cant negotiate with them, all some of them want to see is the destruction of our Western way of life(some aspects of the west do need to change),but thats our choice and not theirs.

This will sound disgusting to you, but if by what ever means avaliable, a plane is stopped from crashing into a building,or a train is not blown up,or the local tescos

is not fire bombed, then those means are justified.

If I may give another example from WW2.

What do you think happened to some of the concentration camp guards who were captured before they left for Argentina,or got a job in the local post office?

I would have no problem in thinking they died a slow and painfull death.

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your first sentence,

torture = poor results,how do you know this? I dont.

Again you say a long record of leading to the death of innocents,can you give me access to this long record?

Your second sentence,regarding heat of the moment,in the example I gave it would have taken place over a period of time and with some thought.Also, as bad as it sounds the actions taken would have been enjoyed.

To your main point,when I referred to extreme times, I was referring to WW2 and not now.

Just to add, I cant recal the IRA Blowing themselves up on trains and busses.

Committed to their cause as you say, now this is the whole point,you cant reason with these people,you cant negotiate with them, all some of them want to see is the destruction of our Western way of life(some aspects of the west do need to change),but thats our choice and not theirs.

This will sound disgusting to you, but if by what ever means avaliable, a plane is stopped from crashing into a building,or a train is not blown up,or the local tescos

is not fire bombed, then those means are justified.

If I may give another example from WW2.

What do you think happened to some of the concentration camp guards who were captured before they left for Argentina,or got a job in the local post office?

I would have no problem in thinking they died a slow and painfull death.

It would be easy to answer many of the points you raise and maybe I will get round to it tomorrow, however given that I doubt it will change your mind I may not bother. But I will say this for now, you asked me to prove the long record of innocents killed by false confessions obtained under torture, and I could go back hundreds of years and point to many, but can you prove a single instance of evidence gained from torture that has stopped a suicide bomb attack. All the links below are worth a read, I draw your attention to the last for a history of false confessions.

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/05/31/china-sets-new-rules.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/andrew_sullivan/article6168270.ece

http://wrongful-convictions.blogspot.com/2009/05/torture-and-false-confessions.html

http://www.impiousdigest.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=275&Itemid=72

http://www.truth-out.org/10140910

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/09/30/a-truly-shocking-guantanamo-story-judge-confirms-that-an-innocent-man-was-tortured-to-make-false-confessions/

http://www.torturecare.org.uk/who_we_are/1840

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/07/mccains_false_confession.php

http://iranpy.net/articles/305

http://www.alternet.org/story/143072/how_an_innocent_man_was_tortured_into_making_false_confessions

http://revcom.us/a/208/burge-en.html

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=false+confessions+under+torture+in+history&hl=en&sa=G&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=-dy0TPWIF5CTjAeXk-W_Aw&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CD0Q5wIwCg

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It would be easy to answer many of the points you raise and maybe I will get round to it tomorrow, however given that I doubt it will change your mind I may not bother. But I will say this for now, you asked me to prove the long record of innocents killed by false confessions obtained under torture, and I could go back hundreds of years and point to many, but can you prove a single instance of evidence gained from torture that has stopped a suicide bomb attack. All the links below are worth a read, I draw your attention to the last for a history of false confessions.

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/05/31/china-sets-new-rules.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/andrew_sullivan/article6168270.ece

http://wrongful-convictions.blogspot.com/2009/05/torture-and-false-confessions.html

http://www.impiousdigest.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=275&Itemid=72

http://www.truth-out.org/10140910

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/09/30/a-truly-shocking-guantanamo-story-judge-confirms-that-an-innocent-man-was-tortured-to-make-false-confessions/

http://www.torturecare.org.uk/who_we_are/1840

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/07/mccains_false_confession.php

http://iranpy.net/articles/305

http://www.alternet.org/story/143072/how_an_innocent_man_was_tortured_into_making_false_confessions

http://revcom.us/a/208/burge-en.html

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=false+confessions+under+torture+in+history&hl=en&sa=G&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=-dy0TPWIF5CTjAeXk-W_Aw&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CD0Q5wIwCg

My mistake,I should have made it clear.

All my points were to do with WW2 to the present day, and not Ducking Stools,Salem witch hunts and killing someone because their favorite colour was blue

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