Antarctic Ice Discussion

[keithlucky]

A few days late but sea ice all time new record of 19.51234 sq km on September the 14th

Edited September 17, 2013 by keithlucky

[keithlucky]

Some stats for Antarctic sea ice

2013 3.6504 19.51234 257 50 2012 3.11109 19.47713 266 54 2011 2.31884 18.95328 266 53 2010 2.8422 18.9968 249 47 2009 2.67096 19.29864 267 53 2008 3.69176 18.29726 247 51 2007 2.7227 19.08545 272 50 2006 2.4866 19.35934 264 51 2005 2.80387 19.29451 272 49 2004 3.25927 19.12341 252 51 2003 3.6257 18.67907 268 48 2002 2.69691 18.11556 252 51 2001 3.44094 18.49324 271 50 2000 2.58248 19.15817 272 49 1999 2.70723 18.98068 273 51 1998 2.7715 19.2433 258 56 1997 2.26415 18.79094 265 58 1996 2.59733 18.83039 267 56 1995 3.32988 18.7353 269 55 1994 3.08286 18.8266 243 43 1993 2.28078 18.709 263 50 1992 2.49238 18.4663 255 54 1991 2.55355 18.66993 273 58 1990 2.78435 18.3788 273 53 1989 2.7229 18.27368 266 51 1988 2.63862 18.78456 277 55

[Polar Maritime]

[knocker]

Stronger winds explain puzzling growth of sea ice in Antarctica

 

Much attention is paid to melting sea ice in the Arctic. But less clear is the situation on the other side of the planet. Despite warmer air and oceans, there’s more sea ice in Antarctica now than in the 1970s – a fact often pounced on by global warming skeptics. The latest numbers suggest the Antarctic sea ice may be heading toward a record high this year.

 

A University of Washington researcher says the reason may lie in the winds. A new modeling study to be published in the Journal of Climate shows that stronger polar winds lead to an increase in Antarctic sea ice, even in a warming climate.

 

http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/09/17/stronger-winds-explain-puzzling-growth-of-sea-ice-in-antarctica/

Edited September 18, 2013 by knocker

[stewfox]

 

One small point it missed it didn't explain why Antarctica has hit another record.

[UV-RAY]

Stronger winds explain puzzling growth of sea ice in Antarctica

 

Much attention is paid to melting sea ice in the Arctic. But less clear is the situation on the other side of the planet. Despite warmer air and oceans, there’s more sea ice in Antarctica now than in the 1970s – a fact often pounced on by global warming skeptics. The latest numbers suggest the Antarctic sea ice may be heading toward a record high this year.

 

A University of Washington researcher says the reason may lie in the winds. A new modeling study to be published in the Journal of Climate shows that stronger polar winds lead to an increase in Antarctic sea ice, even in a warming climate.

 

http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/09/17/stronger-winds-explain-puzzling-growth-of-sea-ice-in-antarctica/

Lol, maybe it's time they stopped making the data fit the theory, remind me again how stronger winds freeze salt water? Also there is currently no data showing that the oceans around Antarctica are getting warmer and for sea ice to expand can mean only one thing, the waters are cold!

[BornFromTheVoid]

Lol, maybe it's time they stopped making the data fit the theory, remind me again how stronger winds freeze salt water? Also there is currently no data showing that the oceans around Antarctica are getting warmer and for sea ice to expand can mean only one thing, the waters are cold!

 

The theory is that the winds are causing ice divergence in some areas, opening up more water to freezing, and causing ridging of ice in other other area, making thick ice more common and the ice more resistant to melt. There are other important factors too, precip increases and ice sheet melt water run-off being just two.

Most data shows that Antarctica is getting warmer though, including the southern ocean.

 

While common sense may tell you more ice = more cold, common sense ain't always right.

[Gray-Wolf]

We are talking 'ice' here and so we must see that ,at some point, that ice will not have the conditions to form. Global temps are still rising, ocean temps are still rising and so there must come a point where these 'ideal' conditions become changed enough not to favour ice growth but instead lead to ice loss.

 

We know that warmer waters are now reaching the coasts of Antarctica ( and melting out the ice shelfs from below), we know that warmer uppers are already over the land mass. the change is already underway yet I fear that for some only the spectacle of open water will be proof enough that this change is occurring.

 

Meanwhile Antarctic study continues and brings us sobering news of how past deglaciation progressed. We should feel blessed that we broke the atmosphere to the extent of opening up the ozone hole that has brought us this respite so we are not currently in the middle of watching West Antarctica rapidly shed ice.

[UV-RAY]

We are talking 'ice' here and so we must see that ,at some point, that ice will not have the conditions to form. Global temps are still rising, ocean temps are still rising and so there must come a point where these 'ideal' conditions become changed enough not to favour ice growth but instead lead to ice loss.

 

We know that warmer waters are now reaching the coasts of Antarctica ( and melting out the ice shelfs from below), we know that warmer uppers are already over the land mass. the change is already underway yet I fear that for some only the spectacle of open water will be proof enough that this change is occurring.

 

Meanwhile Antarctic study continues and brings us sobering news of how past deglaciation progressed. We should feel blessed that we broke the atmosphere to the extent of opening up the ozone hole that has brought us this respite so we are not currently in the middle of watching West Antarctica rapidly shed ice.

Global temps are static GW!

[knocker]

We know that warmer waters are now reaching the coasts of Antarctica ( and melting out the ice shelfs from below), we know that warmer uppers are already over the land mass. the change is already underway yet I fear that for some only the spectacle of open water will be proof enough that this change is occurring.

 

 

 

Indeed GW.

 

Warming ocean thawing Antarctic glacier, researchers say

 

Fairbanks, Alaska— For the first time, researchers completed an extensive exploration of how quickly ice is melting underneath a rapidly changing Antarctic glacier, possibly the biggest source of uncertainty in global sea level projections.


 

Martin Truffer, a physics professor at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, and Tim Stanton, an oceanographer with the Naval Postgraduate School, were able to look underneath the Pine Island Glacier on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and take exact measurements of the undersea melting process.

 

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/node/1677

Edited September 19, 2013 by knocker

[Gray-Wolf]

I'd read that Knock's and, for me,  it is the last in a long trail of measurements that I've been aware of as the warm Southern Oceans picked their way through the submarine canyons surrounding Antarctica and overcoming the impacts of the Ozones holes impacts ( Mother N. will find a way!) from Seals in bath caps to mini subs.

 

Since 02' we've tracked the ingress of warmer basal waters into the shore around west Antarctica and now they have reached Ross. Impacts on the Ross embayment affect the East Antarctic ice sheet and such impacts were said to be millenia away.

[UV-RAY]

Again there are no facts to back up claims that the Antarctic is warming, as for the wind being the cause of ice increasing, excuse me! For sea ice to expand the waters have to be colder so it matters not one jot regarding wind conditions if that was the case you could argue the same for ice loss in the arctic. Jeez there is some right nonsense posted on t'internet sometimes.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Sceptical Inquirer

[knocker]

I know The American Meteorological Society are all all a load of idiots. Why they don't listen to informed opinion in the forums is beyond me.

[UV-RAY]

I know The American Meteorological Society are all all a load of idiots. Why they don't listen to informed opinion in the forums is beyond me.

Joe B is a member as are countless others perhaps you should email them for there opinion. My point is based on simple physics regarding ice conditions and salt water, wind makes no difference to whether sea ice expands, forms or melts.

[knocker]

BFTV has already made this point. It's nothing to with challenging the physics which I suspect the scientists involved might just understand.

 

The polar vortex that swirls around the South Pole is not just stronger than it was when satellite records began in the 1970s, it has more convergence, meaning it shoves the sea ice together to cause ridging. Stronger winds also drive ice faster, which leads to still more deformation and ridging. This creates thicker, longer-lasting ice, while exposing surrounding water and thin ice to the blistering cold winds that cause more ice growth.

 

[stewfox]

Again there are no facts to back up claims that the Antarctic is warming, as for the wind being the cause of ice increasing, excuse me! For sea ice to expand the waters have to be colder so it matters not one jot regarding wind conditions if that was the case you could argue the same for ice loss in the arctic. Jeez there is some right nonsense posted on t'internet sometimes.

 

 

I surprised 'wind patterns' haven't been 'blamed' for the increase in the artic this year. Then again the ice melts out in warmer waters as it goes south. Not so in the Southern Hemisphere apparently. The wind pushes the ice further and further out and it doesn't melt. When it hits the Equator what's the theory then ?

[UV-RAY]

BFTV has already made this point. It's nothing to with challenging the physics which I suspect the scientists involved might just understand.

It still doesn't explain how basic physics are ignored and if the PV was such an important driver of new ice then why is the arctic in such a mess, or is the Southern PV able to defy the laws of physics. It's a nonsense story looking to explain the impossible out of the possible, arctic ice is expanding not because of wind but because of colder waters.

[BornFromTheVoid]

The only basic physics being ignored, are those that show that the southern ocean and Antarctica have continued to warm.

 

I surprised 'wind patterns' haven't been 'blamed' for the increase in the artic this year. Then again the ice melts out in warmer waters as it goes south. Not so in the Southern Hemisphere apparently. The wind pushes the ice further and further out and it doesn't melt. When it hits the Equator what's the theory then ?

 

They are partly to blame, less ice export.

The sea ice around Antarctica isn't making it that much further north, but just enough to influence the coverage. It is melting in the warmer water, but probably getting pushed out and replaced slightly quicker. Then with the thicker ice, it can last longer in warmer water, while freshening of the water from increased rainfall and ice sheet run off lowers the freezing point.

[Gray-Wolf]

If you look at the 'gains' and 'losses' ...... nobody seems to be looking at the sea areas with less ice???.... then you can see where the ice is being 'squeezed' ( ridge ice that lasts longer , being thicker, before melt) in front of Weddell and on the opposite end of the continent.

 

As for 'wind' and freezing? how dumb do you really need to be to not understand freeze due to air . at -20c or more , rushing out of Antarctica's interior!!!!

 

What is Wind ferchrists'sake if not the movement of air????

 

Let us make it easy for those of us 'challenged' by our very being.

 

An air mass of 'very cold temperature' moves over a sea area. What happens to the substances it contacts?

 

Where is Pete and his thermodynamics when you could use him? 

Edited September 19, 2013 by Gray-Wolf

[knocker]

It still doesn't explain how basic physics are ignored and if the PV was such an important driver of new ice then why is the arctic in such a mess, or is the Southern PV able to defy the laws of physics. It's a nonsense story looking to explain the impossible out of the possible, arctic ice is expanding not because of wind but because of colder waters.

 

It doesn't explain to me why climatologists and oceanographers would ignore basic physics. Also I'm amazed that the very informed opinion on here doesn't realise that the PV of the two poles is different and influenced by different factors. Basic meteorology.

Edited September 19, 2013 by knocker

[UV-RAY]

It doesn't explain to me why climatologists and oceanographers would ignore basic physics. Also I'm amazed that the very informed opinion on here doesn't realise that the PV of the two poles is different and influenced by different factors. Basic meteorology.

Regardless, it still cant defy the laws of physics knocker.

[knocker]

Sea ice extent August 2005-13. I'm struck by the fluctuations in distribution.

Edited September 20, 2013 by knocker

[barrel1234]

We are talking 'ice' here and so we must see that ,at some point, that ice will not have the conditions to form. Global temps are still rising, ocean temps are still rising and so there must come a point where these 'ideal' conditions become changed enough not to favour ice growth but instead lead to ice loss.

 

We know that warmer waters are now reaching the coasts of Antarctica ( and melting out the ice shelfs from below), we know that warmer uppers are already over the land mass. the change is already underway yet I fear that for some only the spectacle of open water will be proof enough that this change is occurring.

 

Meanwhile Antarctic study continues and brings us sobering news of how past deglaciation progressed. We should feel blessed that we broke the atmosphere to the extent of opening up the ozone hole that has brought us this respite so we are not currently in the middle of watching West Antarctica rapidly shed ice.

 

 

I have been keeping an eye on sst anomalies for quite some time and recently there hasnt been much in the way of warm water around the Antarctic ice.

 

In fact at the moment it seems to be surrounded by water cooler than average

 

 

http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anomaly/2013/anomnight.9.19.2013.gif

[stewfox]

I have been keeping an eye on sst anomalies for quite some time and recently there hasnt been much in the way of warm water around the Antarctic ice.

 

In fact at the moment it seems to be surrounded by water cooler than average

 

 

http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anomaly/2013/anomnight.9.19.2013.gif

 

Those temperature abnormalities are amazing running all the way up to South Africa.

 

"""In the Antarctic, the currents and winds tend to flow without interruption around the continent in a west-to-east direction, acting like a barricade to warmer air and water to the north!""""

 

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/difference.html

 

I wonder what the abnormalities were like last 20 years in September.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2013 by stewfox

[stewfox]

It doesn't explain to me why climatologists and oceanographers would ignore basic physics. Also I'm amazed that the very informed opinion on here doesn't realise that the PV of the two poles is different and influenced by different factors. Basic meteorology.

 

The reasons for the Antarctic sea ice increase are not fully understood some of the 'theories' make sense some dont. If it basic meteorology then you should publish something ??

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_ice_sheet

Edited September 20, 2013 by stewfox