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Posted
  • Location: ANYWHERE BUT HERE
  • Weather Preferences: ALL WEATHER, NOT THE PETTY POLITICS OF MODS IN THIS SITE
  • Location: ANYWHERE BUT HERE

    What do you know about banks right now that none of us knows? Should we be taking our cash out too?

    I know that all the European banks have been forced into holding European government debts by a Europe hell bent on an idealistic European super state. The problem of course is that the debt stock is not worth what they have been led to believe. The European governments have spent the last three years lambasting the banking sector for a crises driven by poor lending. However, they are the ones who have created the biggest financial crises this world has known for almost a century through their own ridiculous borrowing and lending to create an impression of a single super state.

    That tells me one thing; The banking community is about to be hit hard as the investor base realises the real truth about asset values. The level punishment dished out will be directly attributable to the level of exposure each bank has to the debts in the bankrupt countries of Europe.

    Because nobody can possibly know this level of risk beforehand then it stands to reason that one wouldnt wish to take a chance right!

    Now look at the values in European bank stocks over the past week and ask yourself the same question. What are you going to do?

    Edited by Village
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    As harve has touched on, re inflation and interest rates, its a hell of complicated set up to understand correctly (nobody does imho), the news always presents it very clean, simplistically and wrong.

    Go Greek strikes Go.... It's not often I support strikes, but in this I do. They are absolutely right that Greece does not need more lending. It can't afford what it owes full stop, they still need t

    Afraid not, old bean; China has been a Communist People's Republic since, when, 1947? Just because it's a Tory government that's doing all the kow-towing makes not a jot of difference...But I bet that

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    The people I blame are Banks, Governments and financial situations. Although some blame can be put on the Mr and Mrs in the street the major blame is on the first three. People in the street really respond to what the first three tell them.

    Markets just respond to how Governments, Banks handle and plan to handle situation. Bluster may work on the man in street but less so on the markets.

    Back home rumours are that the Government is going to give a tax cut to the very rich. Yup got to look after your own.

    The problem is that our world has become increase materialistic and people want these things straight away - the banks were far too keen to lend money without considering the consequences - overall far too much short term thinking.

    If we could go back to the old fashioned way of prudence it would be better for all but unfortunately such prudence will last only for a short time until the pressures to have things build up again.

    Strange, our dogs and cats do not get affected this way - give them some food, affection and exercise - that is all they need in life.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    If we could go back to the old fashioned way of prudence it would be better for all but unfortunately such prudence will last only for a short time until the pressures to have things build up again.

    That's presuming that every nationality thinks like we do. Yes owing to relaxation of regulation under the Thatcher years and failure to do anything about since has left people thinking that everything can be bought on credit. I presume people with the same attitude rose up the banking ladders. The only why too influence that is regulation but then the insituations move headquarters elsewhere unless there's world wide regulation. As we seen Banks Governments etc don't think ahead when the gravy train is good or the crisis would have been headed off years before it started or at least lessened.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Back home rumours are that the Government is going to give a tax cut to the very rich. Yup got to look after your own.

    I thought the very rich didnt pay any tax! :whistling: ... and because of that (I'm not joking) the introduction of the 50% rate wasn't ever going to generate huge amounts of tax anyway.

    The fiscal drag on the 40% +NI rate earners (who can hardly be classed as rich) is stiffling most people who would otherwise have more disposable income.

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    Our government can create new money, debt-free and spend it into useful economic activity domestically. Right now, it creates about 2% maximum. You either have democratic control over most of the money in circulation, or you allow the law of the jungle to control peoples' lives entirely.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    Another reason why the dollar is in trouble. "The War On Terror".......

    Currently we have less than 200 detainees at Guantanamo most of whom have not been proven guilty of being ‘Al Qaeda terrorists.’ Let’s be even more generous and count in those detained in other US military prisons like Bagram. Again, we are looking at 500 or so prisoners none of whom having ever been charged; none of whom legally found to be an Al Qaeda terrorist.

    Now please put all these facts in perspective: Ten long years of continuous wars, trillions of dollars, 250,000 military personnel, trillions of dollars worth of intelligence gathering institutions and capabilities, millions of dollars set in rewards for Al Qaeda terrorists, and a supposed network with supposed Al Qaeda active terrorist members in very large numbers. Yet we have less than 1000 detained who have been accused of being Al Qaeda terrorists, and none ever proven to be an active Al Qaeda terrorist member.

    Does this make sense to you? Does it make sense as far as the trillions of dollars you have been made to pay for this? What are we talking about here? A massive never-ending war against a fantastical network of technologically and militaristically dwarfed terrorists whose proven guilty members we haven’t been able to catch or kill.

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/08/05/exactly-how-big-is-this-so-called-al-qaeda/

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    Posted
  • Location: Chevening Kent
  • Location: Chevening Kent

    The people I blame are Banks, Governments and financial situations. Although some blame can be put on the Mr and Mrs in the street the major blame is on the first three. People in the street really respond to what the first three tell them.

    Markets just respond to how Governments, Banks handle and plan to handle situation. Bluster may work on the man in street but less so on the markets.

    Back home rumours are that the Government is going to give a tax cut to the very rich. Yup got to look after your own.

    The main problem as I see it is the governments (not just ours) need to predict ever growing growth for its economy enabling it to then budget its tax demand and spending on that figure. The Gov's do it simply to stay in power and the banks are happy enough to keep making a quick buck on the back of it. The Gov and Bank policies seem to have the caveat 'turn a blind eye' to what the other is doing? Bob Diamond at Barclays picked that up when he was head of commodities, which shows that many top people within the banking sector knew what was around the corner. Whether is was Bush or Blair neither wanted to be the one that owned up to the end of the gravy train as that would have meant political suicide. It can be no coincidence that Tony Blair left office 27th June 2007 only weeks before the run on Northern Rock. He did of course leave the job to his good friend Mr Brown who's first thought was can I get a snap election in before the crap hit the fan? The answer was he wasn't quick enough and that must have made Blair smile as Brown drunk from the challis he left him. Bush in the US was even worse printing money like it was confetti to fuel totally unsustainable growth over the pond. The Chinese own $2 trillion of US debt which effectively means that they have been holding up the US economy so Americans continued to buy goods from China to sustain its own home growth targets to keep itself out of trouble with its people.

    Maybe I am naive, maybe I have little understanding of the issues but it all seems quite simple to me?

    Edited by HighPressure
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    Posted
  • Location: Orleton, 6 miles south of Ludlow
  • Location: Orleton, 6 miles south of Ludlow

    I thought the very rich didnt pay any tax! :whistling: ... and because of that (I'm not joking) the introduction of the 50% rate wasn't ever going to generate huge amounts of tax anyway.

    The fiscal drag on the 40% +NI rate earners (who can hardly be classed as rich) is stiffling most people who would otherwise have more disposable income.

    We all may like to think the rich "get away with it", but the reality is that the top 20% of earners, pay 50% of the tax (or something like that). If we didn't have big earners, the rest of us would be paying a lot more tax.

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    Posted
  • Location: Hanley, Stoke-on-trent
  • Location: Hanley, Stoke-on-trent

    We all may like to think the rich "get away with it", but the reality is that the top 20% of earners, pay 50% of the tax (or something like that). If we didn't have big earners, the rest of us would be paying a lot more tax.

    It's about perception though. We know we are not "all in it togethrer". The Tory, Lib Dem & Labour millionaires can all ride this out with little damage, but the signal that the government would give by reducing the top rate, would shatter the illusion they have like to think they have created.
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    Posted
  • Location: Chevening Kent
  • Location: Chevening Kent

    We all may like to think the rich "get away with it", but the reality is that the top 20% of earners, pay 50% of the tax (or something like that). If we didn't have big earners, the rest of us would be paying a lot more tax.

    Yes but if all the big earners including corporations paid the tax they should, none us lot would have to pay anything.

    The fact is that the very rich do not and have never paid their dues, yes what they pay may contribute a decent percentage of revenue but its only a fraction of what it should be.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    Yes but if all the big earners including corporations paid the tax they should, none us lot would have to pay anything.

    The fact is that the very rich do not and have never paid their dues, yes what they pay may contribute a decent percentage of revenue but its only a fraction of what it should be.

    The banksters who own assets in excess of $1 trillion........

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    Posted
  • Location: Chevening Kent
  • Location: Chevening Kent

    US AAA credit rating downgraded :oops:

    One of the top credit rating agencies, Standard & Poor's, has downgraded the United States' top-notch AAA rating.

    S&P cut the long-term US credit rating by one notch to AA+ with a negative outllook, citing concerns about growing budget deficits.

    S&P said it was because the deficit reduction plan passed by Congress on Tuesday did not go far enough.

    Washington was locked in months of acrimonious partisan bickering over a bill to raise the US debt ceiling.

    As rumours swirled earlier about the downgrade, unnamed US officials had told US media that S&P's analysis of the US economic situation was deeply flawed.

    Correspondents say a downgrade could further erode global investors' confidence in the US economy, which is already struggling with huge debts and unemployment of 9.1%.

    S&P said in its report issued late on Friday: "The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilise the government's medium-term debt dynamics.

    "More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges."

    THIS IS BIG !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    US AAA credit rating downgraded :oops:

    One of the top credit rating agencies, Standard & Poor's, has downgraded the United States' top-notch AAA rating.

    S&P cut the long-term US credit rating by one notch to AA+ with a negative outllook, citing concerns about growing budget deficits.

    S&P said it was because the deficit reduction plan passed by Congress on Tuesday did not go far enough.

    Washington was locked in months of acrimonious partisan bickering over a bill to raise the US debt ceiling.

    As rumours swirled earlier about the downgrade, unnamed US officials had told US media that S&P's analysis of the US economic situation was deeply flawed.

    Correspondents say a downgrade could further erode global investors' confidence in the US economy, which is already struggling with huge debts and unemployment of 9.1%.

    S&P said in its report issued late on Friday: "The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilise the government's medium-term debt dynamics.

    "More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges."

    THIS IS BIG !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Standard & Poor’s together with Moody's seem to wield far too much power. Surely the credit ratings agencies’ ability to rate debt was discredited by the subprime mortgage crisis!

    Who runs them and what alternative motives might they have for their ratings?

    So the US is downgraded to AA, the $ will fall, Gold, Yen and Swiss franc will rise. You could make a few quid on Monday if armed with that sort of info before the markets closed on Friday! Meantime the rest of us will suffer with more market turmoil on Monday as we watch the value of our pensions and ISAs tumble.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Standard & Poor’s together with Moody's seem to wield far too much power. Surely the credit ratings agencies’ ability to rate debt was discredited by the subprime mortgage crisis!

    I read an interesting article regarding blackmailing by CRAs. Can't find it, but this (from wiki) was one example used:

    While often accused of being too close to company management of their existing clients, CRAs have also been accused of engaging in heavy-handed "blackmail" tactics in order to solicit business from new clients, and lowering ratings for those firms . For instance, Moody's published an "unsolicited" rating of Hannover Re, with a subsequent letter to the insurance firm indicating that "it looked forward to the day Hannover would be willing to pay". When Hannover management refused, Moody's continued to give Hannover Re ratings, which were downgraded over successive years, all while making payment requests that the insurer rebuffed. In 2004, Moody's cut Hannover's debt to junk status, and even though the insurer's other rating agencies gave it strong marks, shareholders were shocked by the downgrade and Hannover lost $175 million USD in market capitalization

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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    The people I blame are Banks, Governments and financial situations. Although some blame can be put on the Mr and Mrs in the street the major blame is on the first three. People in the street really respond to what the first three tell them.

    Markets just respond to how Governments, Banks handle and plan to handle situation. Bluster may work on the man in street but less so on the markets.

    Back home rumours are that the Government is going to give a tax cut to the very rich. Yup got to look after your own.

    Aye, PIT...I heard Bumbling Boris blethering on about how that would boost London's (and, by extension, the UK's) economy. Perhaps it's the rampant idiocy in that idea that forced him to start a crusade on plastic bags? Yes, you did hear me right - PLASTIC BAGS!

    And, if all of the present crises can be blamed on Mr and Mrs Ordinary, why do we have so many politicians and bankers running the planet? Maybe I did it. Maybe my personal decision not to own a credit card caused the banking-system to self-destruct?? No, the blame resides squarely with the financial sector.

    Never mind though, guys, Nice Mr Cameron will find some more pension funds to plunder...Same old Tories!

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Never mind though, guys, Nice Mr Cameron will find some more pension funds to plunder...Same old Tories!

    ?????!!

    Does Gordon Brown and his raid on pensions ring any bells??

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/revealed-how-gordon-brown-has-cost-you-163100000-443730.html

    While we're at it I think we can lay much of the blame for our current mess with Gordon, Blair et al. The useless regulatory system/Gold sales/Public sector borrowing/the end of boom and bust aka the housing bubble.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    No, the blame resides squarely with the financial sector.

    Never mind though, guys, Nice Mr Cameron will find some more pension funds to plunder...Same old Tories!

    Only partly right... the politicians from ALL colours who suckered up to the banks are partly to blame as well. And you can't blame the same old tories. the same old labour carries just as much weight and blame.

    Blair/Brown were head over heels in love with the banks and Gordon's first job as chancellor in his 97 budget was to raid the pension fund of everyone rich and poor alike by abolishing pension tax credits as Kiwi points out. He has also admitted he didn't understand what he was doing when he set up the FSA.

    Same old tories ... you can't blame everything on them Pete.... :whistling:

    more apt perhaps is ..Same Old Politicians (from all parties) including multi-millionaire Blair and his web of comapanies... and same old greedy bankers.

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Just when I thought the markets may pick up again on Monday - it looks like going south again.

    I think a lot of the impact of the loss of credit rating has already been built into the recent fall. It was fairly inevitable it was going to happen. It also faily obvious that most of the Eurozone countries economies including Italy are basket cases. I expect the markets will fall further but the markets are usually ahead of the game with both bad and good news so some of the recent events are already factored into the recent plummet.

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: Just north of Cardiff sometimes Llantrisant.
  • Weather Preferences: Winter: Cold & Snow. Summer: Hot and Dry
  • Location: Just north of Cardiff sometimes Llantrisant.

    Aye, PIT...I heard Bumbling Boris blethering on about how that would boost London's (and, by extension, the UK's) economy. Perhaps it's the rampant idiocy in that idea that forced him to start a crusade on plastic bags? Yes, you did hear me right - PLASTIC BAGS!

    And, if all of the present crises can be blamed on Mr and Mrs Ordinary, why do we have so many politicians and bankers running the planet? Maybe I did it. Maybe my personal decision not to own a credit card caused the banking-system to self-destruct?? No, the blame resides squarely with the financial sector.

    Never mind though, guys, Nice Mr Cameron will find some more pension funds to plunder...Same old Tories!

    The same old Tories that have been proven right in front of Labour. How many times has Labour told us to have a plan B and do what America was doing? As a country we needed to take drastic action early on before an economic storm occurred. Britain's borrowing costs are at a 50 YEAR LOW! and that is thanks to strong action by GO and Cameron which is has risen international confidence in the UK. Britain is a safe haven. This time last year when the coalition first came to power a credit rating downgrade was very much a possibility. Britain is pretty safe now. None of us want cuts or tax rises such as VAT and we are all feeling a squeeze but it has to happen and it has to happen at the pace it is, otherwise Britain will never recover and we'd be under threat of a credit rating downgrade. Growth spikes built on more and more debt is not growth. The growth we are seeing now no matter how slow it is, is real growth not growth stuck up by stimulus.

    SAME OLD TORIES, FIXING UP THE COUNTRY AGAIN AFTER 13 YEARS OF MISMANAGEMENT BY LIEBOUR

    Also may I add, we would love to have a mayor like Boris in Cardiff. Our current council run by the Lib Dems are driving us all mad, our cars are getting ruined by speed bumps which they seem to love so much and they keep wanting to develop on land on the green belt by where I live and get rid of our reservoir. The Conservatives are the only people that stand up for my community round here. Boris has been brill, free bus passes for teenagers and stuff. Should be grateful, many people outside London would love to have him running their area.

    Edited by Wales123098
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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Errr Wales 123098 I wouldn't blow the trumpet we haven't really really recovered we're just bumping along a shelf just above the bottom. Would be easier if we had some major industry so we're very dependant on what USA market does plus Europe.

    So far the Government borrowing hasn't been cut yet and we're unlikely to hit the growth required to reduce it.

    So I would put away the blue tinted glasses for a while yet.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    I blame the media - for helping to shape the views and voting habits of the public. I blame the general public, for not being resistant enough to the propaganda of the media (albeit it's hard - given the amount of time people work, the time required to sift truth from half-truth, etc). I blame the politicians that are bought and paid for by the financial and banker elite who refuse to rebel and tell the banksters to sod off. The politicians could have ended our national debt by refusing to borrow from banks. Why borrow, when you can create? Our government created about 50% of our money supply in the 1940's to help create infrastructure and social programs - such as the NHS. Since then, the amount of money in the economy has dissapeared, only to be replaced by credit/debt created by fractional reserve banking. The instruments have got more complex, more high-tempo, thanks to increasing computerization of the currency. The bankers crashed the economy because of fraudulent loans and real-estate bubbles and other derivatives and our governments bailed them out and then implemented austerity to make us all pay.

    Now we have people arguing over more trivial issues such as public vs private sector - when in the grand scheme of things, we have fundamental issues with our economic system. I'm sorry, but we need a monetary solution and not a fiscal solution. There is TOO MUCH DEBT in our economy. It's just not sustainable. Maybe we can start by looking at how Iceland handled things and told the IMF to basically sod off. It's a start.

    Edited by PersianPaladin
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    Posted
  • Location: Chevening Kent
  • Location: Chevening Kent

    I think a lot of the impact of the loss of credit rating has already been built into the recent fall. It was fairly inevitable it was going to happen. It also faily obvious that most of the Eurozone countries economies including Italy are basket cases. I expect the markets will fall further but the markets are usually ahead of the game with both bad and good news so some of the recent events are already factored into the recent plummet.

    I think it has been factored in, but there is a big perspective difference between thinking it will happen and it actually happening. The eyes will now be on the other Credit Agencies to see if they follow suit with the downgrade. As ever the markets will over do its reaction and you can expect a correction at some stage even if we see further drops.

    The Asian markets will be a good indicator and they open at 7pm UK time tomorrow evening I use http://www.kitco.com/ to keep an eye on the markets as it covers the main markets, stock, commodities and currencies.

    Edited by HighPressure
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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    I think it has been factored in, but there is a big perspective difference between thinking it will happen and it actually happening. The eyes will now be on the other Credit Agencies to see if they follow suit with the downgrade. As ever the markets will over do its reaction and you can expect a correction at some stage even if we see further drops.

    The Asian markets will be a good indicator and they open at 7pm UK time tomorrow evening I use http://www.kitco.com/ to keep an eye on the markets as it covers the main markets, stock, commodities and currencies.

    My personal opinion is that global markets will probably drop by 1-2% on monday but be pretty stagnant most of the week. I think the much bigger shock was the growth reduction from Q1 and Q2.

    Would it be better to open a stocks and shares thread to leave this thread for the main economic talk (unemployment/inflation ect..)?

    While the USA being downgraded is not a good thing i do think that nations must have fiscal surplusses for AAA ratings.

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