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Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    Makes you wonder why some people aspire to a US capitalist/fully free market type system; huge debts and massive unemployment seems to be the result. Ok, lot of rich people, just huge number of poor too.

    The two factors go hand in hand.

    The free market system does not cause huge debt (that is the result of human perversion), but the debt then creates the poor because there will always be people that begin climbing the ladder and then fall off due to debt.

    Socialism is a top down approach in which money is taken from the rich and given to the poor.

    Capitalism is a bottom up approach in which the success of the rich creates jobs for the poor.

    Both approaches in theory are good (depending on your point of veiw), however rather than only allowing the strong businesses to survive we have built small businesses on a sea of debt and then expanded this to include assets such as houses.

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    As harve has touched on, re inflation and interest rates, its a hell of complicated set up to understand correctly (nobody does imho), the news always presents it very clean, simplistically and wrong.

    Go Greek strikes Go.... It's not often I support strikes, but in this I do. They are absolutely right that Greece does not need more lending. It can't afford what it owes full stop, they still need t

    Afraid not, old bean; China has been a Communist People's Republic since, when, 1947? Just because it's a Tory government that's doing all the kow-towing makes not a jot of difference...But I bet that

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Socialism is a top down approach in which money is taken from the rich and given to the poor.

    Capitalism is a bottom up approach in which the success of the rich creates jobs for the poor.

    Yes, then somewhere in the middle is the better of two evils?

    Pure socialism does not work as while everyone is supposed to equal, some are always more equal than others....

    Pure capitalism does not work because to maximise your 'richness' you need to pay people less, i.e. create more poor people. this is why capitalists don't tend to favour a basic, minimum wage.

    I've always found the line 'the rich create jobs for the poor' a funny one. It suggests rich people running around trying to give people jobs. The reality is more often they will employ as few people as possible and these people, working for low wages if the rich owner can do so, are the ones that make the owner rich.

    I guess this is why I'm social democrat.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    Yes, then somewhere in the middle is the better of two evils?

    Pure socialism does not work as while everyone is supposed to equal, some are always more equal than others....

    Pure capitalism does not work because to maximise your 'richness' you need to pay people less, i.e. create more poor people. this is why capitalists don't tend to favour a basic, minimum wage.

    I've always found the line 'the rich create jobs for the poor' a funny one. It suggests rich people running around trying to give people jobs. The reality is more often they will employ as few people as possible and these people, working for low wages if the rich owner can do so, are the ones that make the owner rich.

    I guess this is why I'm social democrat.

    Most new jobs are created by middle-class or even poor entrepreneurs.

    Then again - the term "rich" doesn't really mean anything anymore when you look at the fact that even the upper-middle class and wealthy business owners have been robbed by a small banking elite with close ties to the Federal Reserve cartel.

    Edited by PersianPaladin
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Most new jobs are created by middle-class or even poor entrepreneurs.

    On this I would agree. My three colleagues and I would fall into the first group in the above and have created 10 jobs - all well paid - in the last 2 years. Been a lot of work, but very rewarding starting a business from scratch. We also look after our employees - enough funds in the bank to keep them all in work for 6-9 months even if no new work came in. Security for all involved is better than big bonuses for the 'Bosses'.

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    Posted
  • Location: Liverpool
  • Location: Liverpool

    It's bad enough that the nation's jobless rate is 9.7%. But the real national employment rate is even higher than the U.S. Department of Labor's May figure shows.

    The official unemployment index, based on a monthly survey of sample households, counts only people who reported looking for work in the past four weeks. It doesn't account for part-time workers who want to work more hours but can't, given the tight job market. And it doesn't include those who have given up trying to find work.

    When the underemployed and the discouraged are added to the numbers, the unemployment rate rises to 16.6%. The Bureau of Labor Statistics, a unit of the Labor Department, began tracking this alternative measure -- known as the U-6 for its department classification -- in 1995 after economists lobbied for a method comparable to the way Japan, Canada and Western Europe count their unemployed.

    Cont.

    http://articles.mone...yment-rate.aspx

    Still I very much doubt civil unrest because of a 10% unemployment rate + 5% of people who are not looking for work, or already have some work.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    Still I very much doubt civil unrest because of a 10% unemployment rate + 5% of people who are not looking for work, or already have some work.

    Fair enough.

    But it doesn't seem to be getting any better. And I don't think it will under this current trajectory and system.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    The mess that is Greece is dragging the European markets and the Euro down again. The French and German banks with lots of exposure to Greek debt are being particularly hard hit.

    Meanwhile the cost of Spanish borrowing soared to an 11-year high today ... not sure about Ireland, Portugal etc but they must be going in the same direction.

    Strikes, riots, political meltdown .....probably to be followed by a default on its debt! Seems to me that the crew have had enough of rearranging the deckchairs on SS Greece, ...and given the lack of a seaworthy lifeboat, might well go down with the ship.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    A friend of mine has been staying with her cousin in Greece where she has been living for some years. Her views on corruption in Greece are interesting to say the least. We are as pure as the driven snow by comparison. Anyway she sent me a link to an article in Vanity Fair that she thought I might find Interesting. I pass it on.

    Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds

    http://www.vanityfai...0?currentPage=1

    Edited by weather ship
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    Posted
  • Location: Dorset
  • Location: Dorset

    Go Greek strikes Go....

    It's not often I support strikes, but in this I do. They are absolutely right that Greece does not need more lending. It can't afford what it owes full stop, they still need to balance their budget but this becomes quite easy when they don't have to pay 20% of their GDP in debt repayments.

    A haircut of 50%, the budget becomes balanced, Greece defaults, but growth returns and Greece can start the fundamental reforms it needs.

    So who's pressuring Greece to continue paying their debt etc, oh that will be the Germans and French. Who's banks have the most greek debt ?, oh that will be the French and Germans. Lets be clear it's purely for selfish reasons that the German/Franco machine is trying to keep Greece solvent. There are a number of Greek banks that will go to the wall with a 50% haircut, Piraeus, EFG, NBG etc and the biggest lenders to these banks are, yep you've guessed it Germany and France.

    So Greek people you are right stand up and fight for bondholders to share the pain, this is only right and proper in a capitalist system, the shareholders and bond holders should carry some of the burden, if they didn't then the whole risk/profit formula fails and you only get profit and no risk with the normal populations taking all the pain.

    If these banks and financials were stupid enough to lend to greece over the last 3 or 4 years then they deserve everything they get. !

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    Posted
  • Location: Rochester, Kent
  • Location: Rochester, Kent

    Go Greek strikes Go....

    It's not often I support strikes, but in this I do. They are absolutely right that Greece does not need more lending. It can't afford what it owes full stop, they still need to balance their budget but this becomes quite easy when they don't have to pay 20% of their GDP in debt repayments.

    A haircut of 50%, the budget becomes balanced, Greece defaults, but growth returns and Greece can start the fundamental reforms it needs.

    So who's pressuring Greece to continue paying their debt etc, oh that will be the Germans and French. Who's banks have the most greek debt ?, oh that will be the French and Germans. Lets be clear it's purely for selfish reasons that the German/Franco machine is trying to keep Greece solvent. There are a number of Greek banks that will go to the wall with a 50% haircut, Piraeus, EFG, NBG etc and the biggest lenders to these banks are, yep you've guessed it Germany and France.

    So Greek people you are right stand up and fight for bondholders to share the pain, this is only right and proper in a capitalist system, the shareholders and bond holders should carry some of the burden, if they didn't then the whole risk/profit formula fails and you only get profit and no risk with the normal populations taking all the pain.

    If these banks and financials were stupid enough to lend to greece over the last 3 or 4 years then they deserve everything they get. !

    Very (very) good post.

    This is the ECB acting as a protectionist racket. I am sooo glad we are not part of this (I think a Greek default amounts to about £5bn loss to British financial institutions - although much of that is insured or hedged)

    The basis of any system of finance is that if you credit the wrong people then eventually you will become unstuck. And let's not forget the junk bond traders who have tried to extend this crisis to some 12 months to get their 15% return! It's a risk of the game that they're in - that the EU/ECB gave guarentees is just foolhardy,

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    The United Nations warned on Wednesday of a possible crisis of confidence in, and even a "collapse" of, the U.S. dollar if its value against other currencies continued to decline. In a mid-year review of the world economy, the UN economic division said such a development, stemming from the falling value of foreign dollar holdings, would imperil the global financial system.

    But it is not just the United Nations that is concerned about the U.S. dollar.

    On April 18th, Standard & Poor's altered its outlook on U.S. government debt from "stable" to "negative" and warned that the U.S. could soon lose its prized AAA rating.

    At one time, it would have been unthinkable for Standard & Poor's to do such a thing.

    But today it is amazing that it has taken them so long to make such a move. U.S. government finances are falling apart.

    Some more interesting facts:-

    *If Bill Gates gave every penny of his fortune to the U.S. government, it would only cover the U.S. budget deficit for 15 days.

    *It is now being projected that by the year 2021, interest payments on the national debt will amount to $1.1 trillion dollars a year.

    In a previous article on The American Dream, I detailed some more absolutely horrifying statistics about U.S. government debt....

    #1 If you divide the national debt up equally among all U.S. households, each one owes a staggering $125,475.18.

    #2 The federal government has borrowed 29,660 more dollars per household since Barack Obama signed the economic stimulus law two years ago.

    #3 During Barack Obama's first two years in office, the U.S. government added more to the U.S. national debt than the first 100 U.S. Congresses combined.

    #4 In the new budget that the Obama administration has proposed, the U.S. government would spend 3.7 trillion dollars in 2012 and by 2021 the U.S. government would be spending a whopping 5.6 trillion dollars per year.

    #5 The U.S. government currently has to borrow approximately 41 cents of every single dollar that it spends.

    #6 The total compensation that the federal government workforce earned last year came to a grand total of approximately 447 billion dollars.

    #7 The U.S. national debt is currently rising by well over 4 billion dollars every single day.

    #8 The U.S. government is borrowing over 2 million more dollars every single minute.

    #9 The U.S. national debt is over 14 times larger than it was just 30 years ago.

    #10 Unfunded liabilities for entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare are estimated to be well over $100 trillion, and nobody in the U.S. government seems to have any idea how we are actually even going to come close to meeting all of those obligations.

    #11 If you were alive when Christ was born and you spent one million dollars every single day since that point, you still would not have spent one trillion dollars by now. But this year alone the U.S. government is going to go about 1.6 trillion dollars more into debt.

    #12 If the federal government began right at this moment to repay the U.S. national debt at a rate of one dollar per second, it would take over 440,000 years to pay off the national debt.

    http://english.pravd...-dollar_debt-0/

    Edited by PersianPaladin
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Some more interesting facts:-

    http://english.pravd...-dollar_debt-0/

    Doesn't exactly fill one with enthusiasm for a centre to centre right style of government with a focus on free market economics.

    The US is like the guy with 10 maxed out credit cards - fine until someone says 'Hmmm, not sure I should lend you more'.

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    Posted
  • Location: Rochester, Kent
  • Location: Rochester, Kent

    If I were you Jock-Skier I would worry about Scotland.

    I mean you really need to worry about Scotland - stop spending so much money for a start!

    All the evidence points to a very not very nice not very good outcome for all Scots. We've had the oil (thanks, by the way - I can't help it for Scots are impotent in their argument) but you, and Wales, and NI, will be on your own within a decade. I trust we will take the RBS debt (amongst other) to fruition before we do that, and NI will merge with Eire once they default.

    But What for Wales, huh?

    And, frankly, do you care? I mean how much evil can the devil-English cause you?

    Edited by Sparticle
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    If I were you Jock-Skier I would worry about Scotland.

    How sad. You seem to be very angry about things.

    Best debate when you are cool and calm, otherwise true attitudes can slip out; politicians often suffer the same.

    EDIT. Oh - and I'm a petroleum geologist. So not worried at all :D

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Back to Greece a nation full of tax dodgers which seems to be a way of life. They need to default otherwise they'll get into even more debt.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Back to Greece a nation full of tax dodgers which seems to be a way of life. They need to default otherwise they'll get into even more debt.

    It is looking increasingly inevitable. Taking on more debt at increasing interest rates is not going to solve the problem; Banks and bondholders will take a big hit, but then that is the free market as Iceberg pointed out.

    Consequences for the Euro are of course a big part of the problem. I have always been in two minds about it - seems a good idea but in the downturn has highlighted its weakness; the inability to devalue your currency locally.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Banks and bondholders will take a big hit, but then that is the free market as Iceberg pointed out.

    Trouble is that the taxpayer could be asked to bail out the banks again.

    There is a lot of debt exposure out there, mainly with French and German banks. The UK banks are directly exposed to about £12billion of Greek debt but you can be sure that UK banks will also be insuring a lot of the French and German lending to Greece.

    If (more likely when) Greece goes belly up ... the panic will set in banks will stop lending to each other and they'll also want out of Ireland and Portugal. It'll be a right mess and we'll all end up in a worse position than we're already in.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Trouble is that the taxpayer could be asked to bail out the banks again.

    Of course I do see your point.

    How ironic it is that the 'borrower' bails out the lender. It's like the bank trying to repossess your house but when the bank starts going out of business, you run round with a donation to keep it afloat, allowing it to fund the bailiffs it plans for you.

    So presumably should greece default, the UK government, in deficit, would borrow (and tax it's poeple to pay for this) from other sources/banks/countries to allow them to lend money to the banks affected who would in turn lend this money to another country with interest on top; a country which the UK government may then find itself lending to with the goal of helping it keep up payments on its debts..... Or something like that.

    As I've said before, money lending/borrowing was once considered an evil. Society has truly got itself in a pickle by succumbing, with the city only to happy to provide. Debtocracy rules.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl
  • Location: Bramley, Hampshire, 70m asl

    Worryingly it is reported that UK insurers have underwritten 400bn euros of eurozone debt!!!

    .... and you can guarantee that a good proportion of that is in relation to Greece.

    Could a British AIG be on the cards??

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    Trouble is that the taxpayer could be asked to bail out the banks again.

    There is a lot of debt exposure out there, mainly with French and German banks. The UK banks are directly exposed to about £12billion of Greek debt but you can be sure that UK banks will also be insuring a lot of the French and German lending to Greece.

    If (more likely when) Greece goes belly up ... the panic will set in banks will stop lending to each other and they'll also want out of Ireland and Portugal. It'll be a right mess and we'll all end up in a worse position than we're already in.

    And if you bail out again and that fails we wouldn't have any choice. Consider Greece a huge boil. You can let it grow and burst naturally or lance it and get rid of it earlier. Defaulting is lancing it. Short term pain.

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    Greece has to be bailed out, no question. If it isn't we will be faced with Lehman Mark 2, the bigger badder one. Anyone advocating a Greek default needs there head examined.

    If they default a chain reaction will occur with the markets going after one weak economy after another, and the Uk is high on that list make no mistake.

    As a Scotsman from a socialist upbringing, it pains me to say we desperatly need a strong Tory government to save the economy and deal with the over inflated public sector.

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    Posted
  • Location: Huddersfield, 145m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Lots of snow, lots of hot sun
  • Location: Huddersfield, 145m ASL

    Doesn't exactly fill one with enthusiasm for a centre to centre right style of government with a focus on free market economics.

    The US is like the guy with 10 maxed out credit cards - fine until someone says 'Hmmm, not sure I should lend you more'.

    Surely the only logical conclusion from PP's info is that debt as a figure in itself is utterly irrelevant. What we all must continue to focus on is pretending it's not really that bad, that if we all work hard, take our medicine and follow the rules as set down by the clearly fantastically clever people who run our economies, then things will carry on OK ad infinitum...............

    I mean, it's great to know that with every day that goes past the richest 2% of the population get even richer, because at least if it turns out those fantastically clever people running our economies were lying, and things start to go very wrong for us, the Very Rich People will have amassed enough of a fortune to be able to insulate themselves from any of the terribly horrible stuff that's happening to the rest of us. Hip Hip Hooray, three cheers for capitalism..................

    (at what point will people notice this 300 years - and counting - con trick ????)

    Edited by Pennine Ten Foot Drifts
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Some more interesting facts:-

    http://english.pravd...-dollar_debt-0/

    When I clicked the link I received.

    Warning: Dangerous site.

    When we tested english.pravda.ru/business/finance/31-05-2011/118062-dollar_debt-0, it attempted to make unauthorized changes to our test computer by exploiting a browser security vulnerability. This is a serious security threat which could lead to an infection of your computer. Ho, ho.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    When I clicked the link I received.

    Warning: Dangerous site.

    When we tested english.pravda.ru/business/finance/31-05-2011/118062-dollar_debt-0, it attempted to make unauthorized changes to our test computer by exploiting a browser security vulnerability. This is a serious security threat which could lead to an infection of your computer. Ho, ho.

    Looks fine to me.

    Lot of s**t on it though:

    http://english.pravda.ru/business/companies/21-06-2011/118270-faeces-0/ :whistling:

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