Cold Spell Discussion

[Iceni]

Really ? And who exactly is going to pay for it when it happens once every 25 years ? You quote 3 winters in the last 60 years - we need to be prepared for the other 57 winters and hang in there for the 3 or 4 weeks of cold every now and then.

There is no point having 40 days grit without the lorries that will simply rust away unused for 20 years

They survived in the previous events by getting on with it - clearing their own roads, helping each other out and not blaming others when things get a bit difficult

Whatever. I had to laugh when I heard local councils in badly hit areas are calling on 4x4 drivers to volunteer to help out ferrying people about etc. especially when they've spent the last 10 years demonizing us and punishing us with high road taxes (whether you live somewhere where you actually need one or not — as we most certainly do)…

Last year we even had our Landy Defender's tires slashed by some Green nutter in a supervised council car park, we complained but no dice with the attendant or the council — sent us a shirty letter more or less saying we were the antisocial ones for our choice of car.

[tumbleweed]

Really ? And who exactly is going to pay for it when it happens once every 25 years ? You quote 3 winters in the last 60 years - we need to be prepared for the other 57 winters and hang in there for the 3 or 4 weeks of cold every now and then.

There is no point having 40 days grit without the lorries that will simply rust away unused for 20 years

They survived in the previous events by getting on with it - clearing their own roads, helping each other out and not blaming others when things get a bit difficult

Hello, I am not sure I mentioned buying extra gritters at all, merely increase the stored amount of grit......towards the end of the winter you would bring the levels down but at the beginning of the winter you would bring the levels up to 30 to 40 days worth and not the 6 day storage fiasco we have unfolding now. I really didn't think this would turn into a Unix users forum rant from yourself.

This is down to the science of delivery....if a Grit mine can only produce 30,000 tonnes of grit a week and we have 150 local authorities and alot of these authorities use 500 tonnes a day...then it isn't hard to see where the problem is....One of the issues can be the conveyor belt system can only do so much tonnage an hour.

[echobase]

Whatever. I had to laugh when I heard local councils in badly hit areas are calling on 4x4 drivers to volunteer to help out ferrying people about etc. especially when they've spent the last 10 years demonizing us and punishing us with high road taxes (whether you live somewhere where you actually need one or not — as we most certainly do)…

Last year we even had our Landy Defender's tires slashed by some Green nutter in a supervised council car park, we complained but no dice with the attendant or the council — sent us a shirty letter more or less saying we were the antisocial ones for our choice of car.

Drovers are given a bad press by people who drive "FOUR BY FOURS" i.e. Sally on the school run in Dullwich!

I`ve never seen a defender or a disco in a ditch! Just countless wannabees in there 4wd fiestas!!

[Thundery wintry showers]

And in that statement lies the point... You, by gritting an area outside of your property become liable for any injury to a fellow human. The law states this and makes the thought of `getting on with it` more risky.

Clearing your own road makes you liable, helping another makes you liable, so therefore blaming others becomes the normal and a darn sight safer.

Whatever happened to that spirit?? Or did it die in an age of legallities?

Litigation is a serious problem these days.

Regarding gritting areas, it's a double edged sword. Here at UEA, the campus has been gritted- the authorities probably feel they have a duty to grit the campus in case somebody falls over and sues. This is all very well in areas that have been completely freed of snow cover. But in areas where the grit has merely turned the snow to slush, once the grit stops taking effect and temperatures plummet, the result... ice.

There were quite a few occasions at my old school when they gritted the school yard and the end result was that parts of it became an ice rink- and far more dangerous to walk on than areas that hadn't been gritted at all.

I do think Chapmanslade has a point though. The less common snowy winters are, the less economical it becomes to prepare for them. Which, of course, is the main reason why I argue that a trend towards milder winters won't mean as big a reduction in deaths, inconvenience and disruption as is widely made out. True, milder than average winters mean a minimum of all three, but once that "average" rises, we end up less prepared for lesser amounts of cold, meaning a winter like this hits harder than it did when the "average" was much lower. Hopefully this winter will be a bit of a wake-up call and its negative impacts on cold-related deaths and disruption could be offset by resulting improvements over the next few winters as people stop assuming that it's going to be mild and moist.

[Osbourne One-Nil]

Despite rising to -9.5, walking the dog tonight really hurt. The temperature's 'risen' because there looks to be a layer of high cloud. It might have been snowing very lightly, or it might have been ice crystals floating about in the air; it was hard to tell.

[Iceni]

Hello, I am not sure I mentioned buying extra gritters at all, merely increase the stored amount of grit......towards the end of the winter you would bring the levels down but at the beginning of the winter you would bring the levels up to 30 to 40 days worth and not the 6 day storage fiasco we have unfolding now. I really didn't think this would turn into a Unix users forum rant from yourself.

This is down to the science of delivery....if a Grit mine can only produce 30,000 tonnes of grit a week and we have 150 local authorities and alot of these authorities use 500 tonnes a day...then it isn't hard to see where the problem is....One of the issues can be the conveyor belt system can only do so much tonnage an hour.

We have one of the largest salt mines in Cheshire (which provides the salt for the grit) in the world. However, it would seem that Councils would prefer to spend their (*our*) money on diversity outreach officers and 5-a-day supervisors (just read the Jobs in the Guardian on Tuesdays).

The guys on the ground are the best. The idiots in the brand new City and County Hall offices all deserve the sack.

[echobase]

Litigation is a serious problem these days.

Regarding gritting areas, it's a double edged sword. Here at UEA, the campus has been gritted- the authorities probably feel they have a duty to grit the campus in case somebody falls over and sues. This is all very well in areas that have been completely freed of snow cover. But in areas where the grit has merely turned the snow to slush, once the grit stops taking effect and temperatures plummet, the result... ice.

There were quite a few occasions at my old school when they gritted the school yard and the end result was that parts of it became an ice rink- and far more dangerous to walk on than areas that hadn't been gritted at all.

I do think Chapmanslade has a point though. The less common snowy winters are, the less economical it becomes to prepare for them. Which, of course, is the main reason why I argue that a trend towards milder winters won't mean as big a reduction in deaths, inconvenience and disruption as is widely made out. True, milder than average winters mean a minimum of all three, but once that "average" rises, we end up less prepared for lesser amounts of cold, meaning a winter like this hits harder than it did when the "average" was much lower. Hopefully this winter will be a bit of a wake-up call and its negative impacts on cold-related deaths and disruption could be offset by resulting improvements over the next few winters as people stop assuming that it's going to be mild and moist.

The old Scout motto...be prepared....

[MAF]

Despite rising to -9.5, walking the dog tonight really hurt. The temperature's 'risen' because there looks to be a layer of high cloud. It might have been snowing very lightly, or it might have been ice crystals floating about in the air; it was hard to tell.

is that your lowest OON or have you had lower temps this season?

[tumbleweed]

I think 4 x 4's have been redeemed and shown to be great over the last couple of weeks.

The government will take control of the remaining grit supplies whilst the cold is on and things will become difficult and this weekend could unfortunately be the down turn for the country until mild weather comes in.

I shall be looking out for people in my community and helping however I can.

[MAF]

Litigation is a serious problem these days.

Regarding gritting areas, it's a double edged sword. Here at UEA, the campus has been gritted- the authorities probably feel they have a duty to grit the campus in case somebody falls over and sues. This is all very well in areas that have been completely freed of snow cover. But in areas where the grit has merely turned the snow to slush, once the grit stops taking effect and temperatures plummet, the result... ice.

There were quite a few occasions at my old school when they gritted the school yard and the end result was that parts of it became an ice rink- and far more dangerous to walk on than areas that hadn't been gritted at all.

I do think Chapmanslade has a point though. The less common snowy winters are, the less economical it becomes to prepare for them. Which, of course, is the main reason why I argue that a trend towards milder winters won't mean as big a reduction in deaths, inconvenience and disruption as is widely made out. True, milder than average winters mean a minimum of all three, but once that "average" rises, we end up less prepared for lesser amounts of cold, meaning a winter like this hits harder than it did when the "average" was much lower. Hopefully this winter will be a bit of a wake-up call and its negative impacts on cold-related deaths and disruption could be offset by resulting improvements over the next few winters as people stop assuming that it's going to be mild and moist.

this is of interest

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8443745.stm

...It's the local authority's responsibility to clear snow and ice from the public highway. By sweeping snow from one part of the pavement to another, if done in a manner that caused injury to someone, there is a chance legal action could be taken against you under the part of the law known as "tort of nuisance". ...........

On your own land, it is a different matter. You owe visitors a duty under the Occupiers Liability Act 1984 to take reasonable care to ensure that they are reasonably safe. So if you know someone is likely to walk up your garden path, like the milkman, and you know it's slippery, you must take reasonable steps to clear it and grit it if necessary...

[cj114]

Francis Wilson. The man who does for weather forecasting what Christopher Biggins did for the Die Hard series of films.

Steady on. Francis is a legend in his own underpants. He has been around for ever and in the early 80's when on local Thames TV [yes a long time ago] he was the only forecaster one evening to predict heavy rain turning into 6" of Snow during the night!!!

Shortly afterwards he was snatched by SKY where he remains, older and as languid as ever.

Don't Diss the Wilson.

[Osbourne One-Nil]

is that your lowest OON or have you had lower temps this season?

-13.8C earlier this evening is the lowest I've ever recorded.

My mean January temperature so far is standing at a rather chilly -4.9C!

[tumbleweed]

[i always knew clearing Council pavements and roads would make you liable.......something i never do as I have too much area around my house to clear which takes long enough

[Thundery wintry showers]

There's potential for an anomaly here. It's clear from the above that if you have a duty of care regarding a walkway, you don't grit it, and someone slips and gets hurt, you may get sued. But what happens if you grit it, some of the snow only partially melts and then refreezes leading to lethal patches of slippery ice, and then someone gets hurt? I don't know if the law would say that you hadn't taken enough care, or if it would say you'd fulfilled your duty of care even though your gritting ironically made conditions worse.

To be fair most areas that are gritted do clear, but the problem that arises when they don't doesn't seem to get much attention.

[MAF]

-13.8C earlier this evening is the lowest I've ever recorded.

My mean January temperature so far is standing at a rather chilly -4.9C!

definitely mean

[dogs32]

I like mr wilson...nearly always does a good forecast..

One of my old forecaster's was Jim Bacon....very good forecaster

[Thundery wintry showers]

Has anyone seen Rory Bremner's impression of Francis Wilson? That's pretty hilarious, and it also includes the "who knows" reference. ("Temperatures rising quickly: 24.... 25... 26... 27.... 28, 29.... in some parts").

[echobase]

There's potential for an anomaly here. It's clear from the above that if you have a duty of care regarding a walkway, you don't grit it, and someone slips and gets hurt, you may get sued. But what happens if you grit it, some of the snow only partially melts and then refreezes leading to lethal patches of slippery ice, and then someone gets hurt? I don't know if the law would say that you hadn't taken enough care, or if it would say you'd fulfilled your duty of care even though your gritting ironically made conditions worse.

To be fair most areas that are gritted do clear, but the problem that arises when they don't doesn't seem to get much attention.

This is my point, as a shopkeeper you are damned both ways.... grit it, they can sue ...don`t grit they go to sodding tescos!!

[tumbleweed]

The problem is this country has gone barmy with stupid health and safety laws with ambulance chasing lawyers...the law courts need to put a stop to this culture of sue sue

[Bluebreezer54]

Has anyone seen Rory Bremner's impression of Francis Wilson? That's pretty hilarious, and it also includes the "who knows" reference. ("Temperatures rising quickly: 24.... 25... 26... 27.... 28, 29.... in some parts").

I hadnt seen that but thanks for sharing it....very good.

[dogs32]

Sky still saying no breakdown in the cold spell for at least a week or so

[Osbourne One-Nil]

This is my point, as a shopkeeper you are damned both ways.... grit it, they can sue ...don`t grit they go to sodding tescos!!

Has anyone ever actually sued someone for slipping on a surface they've salted? I just wonder if it's another example of one of these rumours which starts with no basis in truth?

The temperature's starting to drop again quickly here with a new record low right now of -14.2C

[Optimus Prime]

Well the sun is coming up now. It's gone from total low cloud 10 minutes ago to clear skies. As a result the temperature has dropped from -3.1c (7AM reading) to -4.2c now. Just goes to show how much difference thin cloud makes.

And a massive 18 inch icicle has come crashing down and embedded itself into the snowcovered ground below, end first.

[Cloud 10]

Wind Map - Britain

-21 in northern scotland!

[NorthernRab]

Wind Map - Britain

-21 in northern scotland!

And overcast with no wind, could be the lowest day time max today (-15'C to beat I think?) if we're lucky.