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The Great Climate Change Debate- Continued


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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
I too am fed up with being misunderstood,but hey I'm used to it now. Nope,there's nothing wrong and everything right about reducing our terrible impact on this world,as I have always,but always maintained. All I want to know is where does climate and it's relationship with CO2 come into the equation? All these millions upon millions of tonnes of the stuff we've released over the decades and we've (allegedly) seen less than a 1C rise in temps over a hundred years. And today,when emissions are higher than ever,what do we see? No further rises and very strong possibility of a cooldown.

TWS: where is the climate changing in ways we deem out of the ordinary? It's doing nothing of the sort. There's no script for it to follow,only the rules some of us have dreamed up ever since 'global warming' was invented. If we're manipulating it now,what is it that we hope to manipulate it into by 'taking action'? Yep,cleaning up our act and stopping being so bloody easy come,easy go and just downright greedy and selfish would go a long way to curing a lot of modern ills,but won't have a bit of effect on climate.

GW: Governments don't give a monkeys about climate change,hence their actions or inactions as you wish to see it. You're the sheep,they are the herdsmen. Do whatever you see fit to sate your conscience,mine is just fine as it is.

I dunno, people like me are 'the sheep' :)

"And today,when emissions are higher than ever,what do we see? No further rises and very strong possibility of a cooldown."

C'mon, you're the intelligent one, the none sheep here, you must know climate trends are not about odd snapshot months data.

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Posted
  • Location: Steeton, W Yorks, 270m ASL
  • Location: Steeton, W Yorks, 270m ASL
I am not anti action on CO2 emissions, its simply that I cannot understand why seemly intelligent people can allow governments and industry to get away with blaming the end user? Millions of people worrying about their lightbulbs or the car they drive will have a tiny impact on CO2 emissions, you know that? So what's wrong with saying to those in power make car producers provide lower emission cars, make industry accountable for its energy usage, make goods importers responsible for where it was sourced, because at the moment they are having a hay day. I can shut my factory down in the UK import from China and get a pat on the back for doing it, we should not be accepting this or be hoodwinked into meaningless measures.

Surely that makes sense, and does not make me anti does it?

If BMW can produce the 5 series with the same emissions as a Mini then so can everyone else, simply make em or stop their production, don't blame the driver!!

It requires everybody to take responsibility. The attitude of "I'll start when you do" is, however human and 'normal', not exactly helpful and leading edge. Re business taking a lead, the Carbon Trust has been set up with a remit to do exactly that. They were a client of mine four years ago and even then were doing a lot of work to influence industry to change its ways. The likes of BP, Tesco, Government, Virgin etc. adopting eco-friendly policies does not just happen of its own volition. It is probably fair to say that business is well ahead of private individuals at present in terms of taking steps to address carbon footprints.

I too am fed up with being misunderstood,but hey I'm used to it now. Nope,there's nothing wrong and everything right about reducing our terrible impact on this world,as I have always,but always maintained. All I want to know is where does climate and it's relationship with CO2 come into the equation? All these millions upon millions of tonnes of the stuff we've released over the decades and we've (allegedly) seen less than a 1C rise in temps over a hundred years. And today,when emissions are higher than ever,what do we see? No further rises and very strong possibility of a cooldown.

TWS: where is the climate changing in ways we deem out of the ordinary? It's doing nothing of the sort. There's no script for it to follow,only the rules some of us have dreamed up ever since 'global warming' was invented. If we're manipulating it now,what is it that we hope to manipulate it into by 'taking action'? Yep,cleaning up our act and stopping being so bloody easy come,easy go and just downright greedy and selfish would go a long way to curing a lot of modern ills,but won't have a bit of effect on climate.

GW: Governments don't give a monkeys about climate change,hence their actions or inactions as you wish to see it. You're the sheep,they are the herdsmen. Do whatever you see fit to sate your conscience,mine is just fine as it is.

Laserguy, rewriting the future before it's happened gives off a feint whiff of desperation don't you think. I see no evidence anywhere of a potential cooldown. Sure, there are one or two on N-W who keep on pointing to 1998 and saying we haven't been warmer since, but I wouldn't put it past the same people to suggest the Lotto was rigged if any particular number wasn't drawn for more than seven weeks.

I also think that if you're going to come out withs trident statements like "Governments don't give a monkeys" you might offer more evidence than your occasionally potentially ill thought out opinion alone. There's plenty of evidence of governments taking action, or trying to. As ever, though, there are a lot of considerations to be tensioned. The fact remains, doing nothing and hoping for the best - as you seem to hope - is carelessness in the extreme.

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Posted
  • Location: Coalpit Heath, South Gloucestershire
  • Location: Coalpit Heath, South Gloucestershire

Peeps..... we all want a cleaner world. We all, on here, seem to have that in common.

It's just everything else that gets argued about! :D

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Posted
  • Location: Napton on the Hill Warwickshire 500ft
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and heatwave
  • Location: Napton on the Hill Warwickshire 500ft
I also think that if you're going to come out withs trident statements like "Governments don't give a monkeys" you might offer more evidence than your occasionally potentially ill thought out opinion alone. There's plenty of evidence of governments taking action, or trying to. As ever, though, there are a lot of considerations to be tensioned. The fact remains, doing nothing and hoping for the best - as you seem to hope - is carelessness in the extreme.

Its swings and round abouts so as I mention before do you spend trillions now ?

Just because some people dont want to spend trillions doesnt mean they dont care or wouldnt do anything :D

Take plastic bags a small Daily Mail campaign and I bet you by the end of the year a 80% reduction in their UK use

why ?

1. Education ie they take a 1000 yrs to de grade , only 1 in 5,000 may have know that before

2. Visble evidence , plastic bags every where

3. Alternative fairly easy

ie people will change if they see evidence and the alternative is relatively easy

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Posted
  • Location: Chevening Kent
  • Location: Chevening Kent
It requires everybody to take responsibility. The attitude of "I'll start when you do" is, however human and 'normal', not exactly helpful and leading edge. Re business taking a lead, the Carbon Trust has been set up with a remit to do exactly that. They were a client of mine four years ago and even then were doing a lot of work to influence industry to change its ways. The likes of BP, Tesco, Government, Virgin etc. adopting eco-friendly policies does not just happen of its own volition. It is probably fair to say that business is well ahead of private individuals at present in terms of taking steps to address carbon footprints.

I want my leaders and those with the biggest influence to lead the way not tell me the way and stay at home themselves. Yes we all need to go on this journey and that includes the big guns not just the foot solders, we can achieve nothing without our artillery and air support. Its all a bit World War 1 scenario with us being sent over the top while the generals stay nice and cosy. I maintain it is right to question their motives and their commitment and demand they lead us over the top, I don't want to be a martyr when they write the history books, I also see it as a failure of duty??

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Posted
  • Location: Thame, Oxfordshire
  • Location: Thame, Oxfordshire
Laserguy, rewriting the future before it's happened gives off a feint whiff of desperation don't you think. I see no evidence anywhere of a potential cooldown. Sure, there are one or two on N-W who keep on pointing to 1998 and saying we haven't been warmer since, but I wouldn't put it past the same people to suggest the Lotto was rigged if any particular number wasn't drawn for more than seven weeks.

It's just like you SF to ignore a data point that doesn't fit your inutuition.

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Posted
  • Location: South Yorkshire
  • Location: South Yorkshire
1).Laserguy, rewriting the future before it's happened gives off a feint whiff of desperation don't you think. 2).I see no evidence anywhere of a potential cooldown. .

Point 1. This is precisely what the IPCC and governments have been doing for ages.

Point 2. Been living under a rock?

Dev,climate trends are not based on one months snapshot data,true. But this far into the game,the signs are not looking good wrt the anticipated effects of CO2. Levels are presumably at their highest today from our emissions and will be even greater tomorrow,and the day after etc. Climate still refuses to play ball. It never will!

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Posted
  • Location: Lincoln, Lincolnshire
  • Weather Preferences: Sunshine, convective precipitation, snow, thunderstorms, "episodic" months.
  • Location: Lincoln, Lincolnshire

Have the IPCC been ignoring the data points, or has the media conveniently ignored them when presenting gross exaggerations of the IPCC findings? Remember that there is often a big difference between what the climate scientists spout and what the public receive.

Where is the evidence that the globe probably isn't undergoing long-term warming? So far, we have tentative evidence that there's a small chance of the warming trend stalling, in view of temperatures staying similar since 1998 and a cool January in 2008. But it's not as if the warm point in 1998 occurred under similar circumstances to the following decade. It was enhanced by a strong El Nino. There's a big difference between "there's a possibility that it might not be" and "it probably isn't".

I sense quite a lot of hypocrisy on the anti-AGW side of this debate (not all members, but some). There is a general agreement that we want a cleaner world, yet there seems to be a desire to accept any opinion as Gospel truth if it preaches "maintain the status quo, wait and see", regardless of whether it's arguing that AGW is a myth, or that AGW is real but we can't do anything about it. This suggests to me that some people are afraid to admit, or even consciously realise, what they are afraid of. It is not resistance to the concept of AGW, it is resistance to change, wanting society to stay the way it is because it's the way it is.

The points about governments and businesses vs. the general public are clouded by another factor- the businesses and governments have more authority. They are in far more of a position to encourage and develop clean alternatives for the public to use, than the other way round. Of course, it's also up to the public to embrace these alternatives and take steps of their own- we need action on all fronts. But I do agree with the points on not putting the blame squarely on the end user. As for businesses, there is some progress on eco-friendliness but it seems distinctly slow, air-conditioning, heating and waste disposal still being very inefficient at a number of institutions for example. That said, SF's point is probably correct as most private individuals are doing even less.

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Posted
  • Location: Chevening Kent
  • Location: Chevening Kent
The points about governments and businesses vs. the general public are clouded by another factor- the businesses and governments have more authority. They are in far more of a position to encourage and develop clean alternatives for the public to use, than the other way round. Of course, it's also up to the public to embrace these alternatives and take steps of their own- we need action on all fronts. But I do agree with the points on not putting the blame squarely on the end user. As for businesses, there is some progress on eco-friendliness but it seems distinctly slow, air-conditioning, heating and waste disposal still being very inefficient at a number of institutions for example. That said, SF's point is probably correct as most private individuals are doing even less.

I want to see an even playing field for everyone when it comes to going 'Green' its seems so wrong to me that if you are wealthy you can put solar panels on your roof or put a windmill in your garden and even go buy the latest hybrid Lexus 4x4 for 50k and get cheap car tax and a pat on the back for being green. Whilst the average Joe including me would love to do that but simply cannot afford too, there are no government subsidies on green cars infact there were but they removed them. Yes everyone can do a bit to cut their excesses but the majority of folk are just trying to survive each day, which means an older car, trips to schools or driving vast distances to work. I don't subscribe to the punishing of ordinary folk by increasing taxation yet further especially when the facts are that these people (us) are just a captive audience with very little choice but to pay the higher tax, you can't cycle 3 kids to school and ride a 100 mile round trip to work each day?

I want my government to help me be greener, make eco friendly technology available to all, let children go to their local schools, encourage not discourage manufacturing industry in our towns. Its entirely wrong that the UK should buy cheap goods from China and then blame them for emissions, we are as responsible for them as they are!

Edited by HighPressure
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Posted
  • Location: Co Dublin, Ireland
  • Location: Co Dublin, Ireland
What's your take on this little fella, then?

post-5986-1204730058_thumb.png

The largest drop in 10 years........and a stunning one too :ph34r:

Edited by Darkman
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Posted
  • Location: Worthing West Sussex
  • Location: Worthing West Sussex
What's your take on this little fella, then?

post-5986-1204730058_thumb.png

Each "warm peak" is in fact a massive cooling - El Niño takes a lot of energy from the Pacific Ocean and puts it into the atmosphere - 1, 2, 3 or so years of stored heat lost in one concentrated event. La Ninas aren't comparable, they don't extract a lot of heat from the atmosphere- that's the prerogative of clear skies, in fact they (La Ninas) are typically neutral in their effect globally as far as temperature is concerned.

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Posted
  • Location: Lincoln, Lincolnshire
  • Weather Preferences: Sunshine, convective precipitation, snow, thunderstorms, "episodic" months.
  • Location: Lincoln, Lincolnshire

We need some more data to prove whether the January 2008 anomaly was just a blip, or part of something longer-term. My suspicion is that February will be one of the top 10 warmest globally, looking at the NOAA anomaly maps, though unlikely to be approaching record warmest.

I think HighPressure makes a reasonable point in the latest post.

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Posted
  • Location: Rochester, Kent
  • Location: Rochester, Kent
Hehe...gotta love photoshop.

Yeah - I've always suspect the Hadley Centre of over using Photoshop :)

Check the data Hadley's website and use Excel to draw the graph from the first column. It comes out exactly the same.

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Posted
  • Location: South Yorkshire
  • Location: South Yorkshire
This thread does on occasion remind me of a chapter in a research psychology book I was reading recently, exploring why cults develop and persist, often hoodwinking even otherwise intelligent people into joining the ranks.

Did the book throw any light on the emergence and development of the AGW cult? Sorry,too good an opportunity to pass up!

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
Did the book throw any light on the emergence and development of the AGW cult? Sorry,too good an opportunity to pass up!

I wish you contributions would match your self claimed intelligence, rather then just playing the stereotyping game :)

Edited by Devonian
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Posted
  • Location: Napton on the Hill Warwickshire 500ft
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and heatwave
  • Location: Napton on the Hill Warwickshire 500ft
What's your take on this little fella, then?

post-5986-1204730058_thumb.png

Suggest the next ice age isnt far away B)

Cet model suggests UK is cooling down

2006 CET 10.52

2007 CET 10.30

we are 0.5c down for Jan and Feb cf last yr already

I saw a interesting article re the Antartic ice sheet and 'global warming' in this month American Scientific journal

Of course they have to show how Florida would look with 50ft 200ft and 300ft sea level rises

I sometimes wonder who pays these alarmist wages

I appreciate the CET data proves nothing (just blips) but why cant we have even in scientific journals a removal of bias/alarmist stuff

my prediction for CET for UK 2008 10.11 (like 1949 which show feb at 5.2 as well)

Edited by stewfox
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Posted
  • Location: Burntwood, Staffs
  • Location: Burntwood, Staffs

I heard this story on the radio this morning.

Can't help thinking that it's not what a lot of people on here wanted to hear.

I'm sure it will be discredited in due course.

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Posted
  • Location: Coalpit Heath, South Gloucestershire
  • Location: Coalpit Heath, South Gloucestershire

There seem to be some contradictions there, especially the EA saying that last Summer's floods cannot be attributed to climate change but that climate change predictions mean we can expect to see more extreme weather events such as flooding in the future.

Also the CEH report suggests that flooding may become less severe as climate change progresses due to warmer drier Summers resulting in the ground becoming more able to absorb water when storms come.

I always note the use of the words "climate change" replacing "global warming" as the years go by!

Honestly, :unknw: , that Al Gore bloke saying that there was a consensus amongst scientists and that the debate was over.......tut, tut. ;)

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
I heard this story on the radio this morning.

Can't help thinking that it's not what a lot of people on here wanted to hear.

I'm sure it will be discredited in due course.

Is it what you wanted to hear?

There seem to be some contradictions there, especially the EA saying that last Summer's floods cannot be attributed to climate change but that climate change predictions mean we can expect to see more extreme weather events such as flooding in the future.

Well, the floods were, essentially, weather, climate, being weather averages, is a different matter. I expect weather averages to change over time due to our activities.

Also the CEH report suggests that flooding may become less severe as climate change progresses due to warmer drier Summers resulting in the ground becoming more able to absorb water when storms come.

I always note the use of the words "climate change" replacing "global warming" as the years go by!

Honestly, :unknw: , that Al Gore bloke saying that there was a consensus amongst scientists and that the debate was over.......tut, tut. ;)

Essentially, it is. Co2 is a ghg we've added a third more of it to the atmosphere (and we're making other changes to the planet that effect climate). There will be climate effects. As ever it's not if but how much.

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Posted
  • Location: Upton, Wirral (44m ASL)
  • Location: Upton, Wirral (44m ASL)
Essentially, it is. Co2 is a ghg we've added a third more of it to the atmosphere (and we're making other changes to the planet that effect climate). There will be climate effects. As ever it's not if but how much.

A 'third more' of ~200parts per million (0.02%) of the atmosphere. 'How much' is spot on imho :unknw:

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
A 'third more' of ~200parts per million (0.02%) of the atmosphere. 'How much' is spot on imho ;)

Not the very unscientific 'it's only a few part per million' argument :unknw: - I expect better :) . On that basis one should question how a few ppm of tributyl tin, or anthrax, or antibiotics can have an effect...

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Posted
  • Location: Upton, Wirral (44m ASL)
  • Location: Upton, Wirral (44m ASL)
Not the very unscientific 'it's only a few part per million' argument :unknw: - I expect better :) . On that basis one should question how a few ppm of tributyl tin, or anthrax, or antibiotics can have an effect...

Simple really - the chemicals you quote have a strong 'chemical reaction' with other much more abundant compounds present in the body. CO2 is a colourless odourless inert gas that has minimal (weak acidic dissolution in water) interaction with anything else in the atmosphere. ;)

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