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noggin

A growing groundswell of opinion?

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Dev,I assure you 100% I'm not being deliberately awkward or obstructive,but what would you honestly like to see me and millions of others actually DO? I can't speak for the population but I am an 'environmentally friendly' type ( low watt bulbs,walking miles to work even tho' I have a car,watching energy use etc,etc). Maybe your argument isn't with me after all,my only 'crime' not going with the AGW consensus(assuming there is such a thing)?

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Dev,I assure you 100% I'm not being deliberately awkward or obstructive,but what would you honestly like to see me and millions of others actually DO? I can't speak for the population but I am an 'environmentally friendly' type ( low watt bulbs,walking miles to work even tho' I have a car,watching energy use etc,etc). Maybe your argument isn't with me after all,my only 'crime' not going with the AGW consensus(assuming there is such a thing)?

I've not accused you of a crime either :)

Imo, we have to live closer to what is sustainable - consume less, waste less. A friend on mind was gobsmacked by how much his son was thinking of spending on his wedding - but this friend had more foreign holidays himself than I can remember. Conspicious consumption is what humanity does these days (without even thinking), what India and China aspire to - essentially lives filled with the 'stuff' of cheap commodities, holidays, food, energy. We have toooo much money, we think 'have it, spend it' we waste, we binge on 'stuff'. To be clear I'm part of that binge (to a lesser extent than some, but I live a 'modern' lifestyle if pretty minimal) but I see the problem of ever increasing demands being made of a finite planet. Something has to give. Of course we in the rich and powerful west will see this'give' last, but I suspect we will see it.

So, orderly or disorderly change? Again, probably the latter - a right pigs ear.

Oh, and no, I don't go around in sackcloth, and we're happy. And again, my opinion. Oh, and I'm a marxist, or greenie, or eco nazi or something of course ;)

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Dev,astonishingly I agree with everything you've just said! We're straying into another topic here tho',so I think we'll have to agree to differ re. climate change. You're right tho',the extravagance of the West and our want for nothing,easy come,easy go attitude is setting us up for disaster which is very real. IMO,of course! Regards,LG.

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Just to give a very clear graphic of wealth generating Co2 emissions, here are a couple of graphs which also detail the worst offenders down to the least.

http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/national_c...ions_per_capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_...t-co2-emissions

And for oil consumption:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_...oil-consumption

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Meanwhile,our government is on about building an extra 3,000,000 houses while we're simultaneously expected to reduce the UK's 'carbon footprint'. OK,all you number crunchers out there,work that one out and come back to me when you've twiddled all the figures to make it add up.

But those houses are needed and even more in the future. Of course you could stop all immigration but any Minister who suggests that will be branded a racist and his/her career would end rather promptly.

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The measures 'required' will never be put in place because agw is non-existent. Not only that but these 'measures required' (as you put it) - if they were implemented tomorrow would put the world into a terminal global economic decline you could not possibly imagine. Do you think that is something the average person on the street would accept?

Darkman, far too simplistic a view I'm afraid. There is plenty of scope for affordable energy - not energy as cheap as we have had it, but affordable, not least of which is nuclear. Why is it that those who tend to deny warming the most vociferously also tend to be those who froth at the mouth most unrealistically at the prospect of snow? Could these two be in any way related?

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But those houses are needed and even more in the future. Of course you could stop all immigration but any Minister who suggests that will be branded a racist and his/her career would end rather promptly.

Don't want to even go down that road,it's impossible to say anything without it being misconstrued for precisely the reasons you point out.

Darkman, far too simplistic a view I'm afraid. There is plenty of scope for affordable energy - not energy as cheap as we have had it, but affordable, not least of which is nuclear. Why is it that those who tend to deny warming the most vociferously also tend to be those who froth at the mouth most unrealistically at the prospect of snow? Could these two be in any way related?

So,faced with the dire consequences that we are constantly told are awaiting us via climate change,why aren't governments all over the world falling over themselves to go nuclear (which I have no problem with)? If they are doing already and I'm not aware,fine,emissions problem solved? But just watch the environmentalists who are currently wringing their hands over CO2 be up in arms at the announcement of a nuclear power programme!

Personally,I don't deny warming completely (though the jury is still out on that one,all depending on the source,who to trust etc),only Agw. I don't froth at the mouth at the prospect of snow,the trend we are in makes it something to get worked up over if you're a cold lover but realistically we all know that the winters of yore are a pipedream until the trend reverses,as is the nature of trends. This is the way of climate as it's always been. Or is anyone seriously suggesting that we are on a one-way journey? If so,we're going the way of the dodo and there needs to be some way that government makes damn sure that the facts(?) are spelled out to everyone in the land and what's going to be/can possibly be done instead of whisperings of doom,spiralling taxation and the lavishing of millions of pounds of our money on such ludicrous things as the Olympics while we plunge headlong into the abyss!

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So,faced with the dire consequences that we are constantly told are awaiting us via climate change,why aren't governments all over the world falling over themselves to go nuclear (which I have no problem with)? If they are doing already and I'm not aware,fine,emissions problem solved? But just watch the environmentalists who are currently wringing their hands over CO2 be up in arms at the announcement of a nuclear power programme!

Personally,I don't deny warming completely (though the jury is still out on that one,all depending on the source,who to trust etc),only Agw. I don't froth at the mouth at the prospect of snow,the trend we are in makes it something to get worked up over if you're a cold lover but realistically we all know that the winters of yore are a pipedream until the trend reverses,as is the nature of trends. This is the way of climate as it's always been. Or is anyone seriously suggesting that we are on a one-way journey? If so,we're going the way of the dodo and there needs to be some way that government makes damn sure that the facts(?) are spelled out to everyone in the land and what's going to be/can possibly be done instead of whisperings of doom,spiralling taxation and the lavishing of millions of pounds of our money on such ludicrous things as the Olympics while we plunge headlong into the abyss!

LG, I'm not sure what we have at present is a natural trend: it's global not localised, extreme in places, and off the measured record. You may suppose it's going to reverse but I rather doubt it, certainly in the rest of my lifetime.

That said, (A)GW is currently, though aligned with the end of life as we know, across a hell of a lot of clear ground between here and that point. IN part, that is why there is no current rush for nuclear. Whilst there is still a lot of perceived time to choose there will be inaction - why? For the reasons that I suspect you, and several others on here, would rather GW conveniently went away; that action costs money.

I've outlined the issue with nuclear elsewhere today, and it will develop to take a growing share, though it will remain questionable with the public whilst carbon alternatives are still perfectly affordable. That situation will change eventually, though in the meantime a plethora of other alternatives will come along.

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Yes, there is a growing % of the masses who now believe that GW is not going to happen.

ALL it will take for the mainstream to quit the whole 'global warming' issue will be one really cold long winter (something that is statistically still likely at some point).

Never forget just how dumb and outright ignorant the typical person is, and especially so in terms of the nations 'collective memory'. The average UK resident lacks even the basic grounding science, why are people still treating the populace like they are intelligent ?

So, all we need is just one cold winter, and anyone touting a warming climate will be laughed at and slated. Hell, there are even signs of that attitude on this forum at times (despite the fact that even the naysayers concede an overall warming trend).

The opinion of the masses is largely irrelevent, since such views are based on ignorance and what newspaper they happen to read.

Calrissian: back to black :doh:

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Yes, there is a growing % of the masses who now believe that GW is not going to happen.

ALL it will take for the mainstream to quit the whole 'global warming' issue will be one really cold long winter (something that is statistically still likely at some point).

Never forget just how dumb and outright ignorant the typical person is, and especially so in terms of the nations 'collective memory'. The average UK resident lacks even the basic grounding science, why are people still treating the populace like they are intelligent ?

So, all we need is just one cold winter, and anyone touting a warming climate will be laughed at and slated. Hell, there are even signs of that attitude on this forum at times (despite the fact that even the naysayers concede an overall warming trend).

The opinion of the masses is largely irrelevent, since such views are based on ignorance and what newspaper they happen to read.

Calrissian: back to black :doh:

Problem is that arrogance doesn't work either.

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Problem is that arrogance doesn't work either.

Sure doesn't. In fact,it generates the opposite effect. So now all those people who most certainly aren't numb-nuts and have the ability to think,to really think long,long and hard for themselves instead of being told what's what by our controllers apparently are thick and worthy of nothing but scorn and ridicule.

No-one is totally dismissing a warming trend,we're dismissing the causes and the motives for saying it's due to us,backed up by the lack of any real action by the very ones who are saying it's our fault and treating (for example) the Olympics of far more pressing concern. As for the genuinely uneducated,couldn't care less to find out hordes,well they frankly aren't my concern. Let them accept the taxes and nonsense they keep swallowing without complaint.

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Yes, there is a growing % of the masses who now believe that GW is not going to happen.

ALL it will take for the mainstream to quit the whole 'global warming' issue will be one really cold long winter (something that is statistically still likely at some point).

Never forget just how dumb and outright ignorant the typical person is, and especially so in terms of the nations 'collective memory'. The average UK resident lacks even the basic grounding science, why are people still treating the populace like they are intelligent ?

So, all we need is just one cold winter, and anyone touting a warming climate will be laughed at and slated. Hell, there are even signs of that attitude on this forum at times (despite the fact that even the naysayers concede an overall warming trend).

The opinion of the masses is largely irrelevent, since such views are based on ignorance and what newspaper they happen to read.

Calrissian: back to black :doh:

Yes but their ignorance and lack of education is due to the failure of government to educate its masses properly, Oh: the very same government which can be trusted to lead us to Climate salvation?

It is the job of the educated to teach not to dictate, I would rather the earth burn than live with arrogance!

In common language you write a load of old b****cks mate!!!!

Apologies to the mods I normally use swear words but this guy has really mad me mad!

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Yes, there is a growing % of the masses who now believe that GW is not going to happen.

ALL it will take for the mainstream to quit the whole 'global warming' issue will be one really cold long winter (something that is statistically still likely at some point).

Never forget just how dumb and outright ignorant the typical person is, and especially so in terms of the nations 'collective memory'. The average UK resident lacks even the basic grounding science, why are people still treating the populace like they are intelligent ?

So, all we need is just one cold winter, and anyone touting a warming climate will be laughed at and slated. Hell, there are even signs of that attitude on this forum at times (despite the fact that even the naysayers concede an overall warming trend).

The opinion of the masses is largely irrelevent, since such views are based on ignorance and what newspaper they happen to read.

Calrissian: colourback tcolourirrelevanto black B)

well shall we call them NIMBLE

not in my bloody life expectancy

more worried about owning it, than what the cost to the planet is.

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Yes but their ignorance and lack of education is due to the failure of government to educate its masses properly, Oh: the very same government which can be trusted to lead us to Climate salvation?

It is the job of the educated to teach not to dictate, I would rather the earth burn than live with arrogance!

In common language you write a load of old b****cks mate!!!!

Apologies to the mods I normally use swear words but this guy has really mad me mad!

HP, would that that were true.

I wouldn't have been so brash as C in stating the PoV, but I sympathise with the opinion. In a country where many still leave school at 16 unable to read, write, or perform basic maths; most don't speak another language; many don't vote, or particularly care about the issues of the day; and - I dare say - more could name Wayne Rooney's wife than the names of the leaders of the three main political parties, I think you're stretching it to blame the Government for not educating people. The sad fact is that most people don't care, and some of those that do haven't got the brainpower and / or time to mug up on the facts.

And if you doubt me, then look through the threads on here: N-W is far from representative of the UK as a whole, but even here there is no one truth, and a good few who - despite strong arguments to the contrary - are yet to be convinced that the climate is warming at all. Why would these people be convinced by the Government.

The simple fact is that some people will argue with a signpost if it's saying something they would rather not hear.

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HP, would that that were true.

I wouldn't have been so brash as C in stating the PoV, but I sympathise with the opinion. In a country where many still leave school at 16 unable to read, write, or perform basic maths; most don't speak another language; many don't vote, or particularly care about the issues of the day; and - I dare say - more could name Wayne Rooney's wife than the names of the leaders of the three main political parties, I think you're stretching it to blame the Government for not educating people. The sad fact is that most people don't care, and some of those that do haven't got the brainpower and / or time to mug up on the facts.

And if you doubt me, then look through the threads on here: N-W is far from representative of the UK as a whole, but even here there is no one truth, and a good few who - despite strong arguments to the contrary - are yet to be convinced that the climate is warming at all. Why would these people be convinced by the Government.

The simple fact is that some people will argue with a signpost if it's saying something they would rather not hear.

There is a truth in that many folk on the street has very limited knowledge not only in climate change but other subjects too that you would expect reasonably intelligent people to have. But a sweeping generalisation of these people is wrong and says more about the failure of the so called educated to deliver their argument to them. The fact about environmentalism fullstop is that it can only work with the support of the masses, it cannot be imposed simply to make the point that these people are irrelevant is arrogance of the highest order in my opinion.

The truth is that most (not all) people spend all day every day just trying to get by, I myself have kids a business to run and bills to pay, places to be etc and so the list goes on. I just happen to have an interest in science as does my son (who by the way is educated at home) but many do not have the time or the interest to go out of their way to fully understand what is a complex subject, that does not make them stupid or irrelevant. They hear claim and counter claim, they know their taxes are going up but distrust those in power who always seem to need more money to spend. They know that governments never invest in the long term as they need to be voted back into power in a just a few years and for any environmentalist or pro AGW supporter to claim otherwise is plainly naive.

The sociology of this argument is as fascinating and as important as the issue of climate change itself infact they are irrevocable linked ain't they?

Its about good message delivery and credibility and at the moment Climate change does neither well, the problem lies with the teachers not the students!

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Yes, there is a growing % of the masses who now believe that GW is not going to happen.

ALL it will take for the mainstream to quit the whole 'global warming' issue will be one really cold long winter (something that is statistically still likely at some point).

Never forget just how dumb and outright ignorant the typical person is, and especially so in terms of the nations 'collective memory'. The average UK resident lacks even the basic grounding science, why are people still treating the populace like they are intelligent ?

So, all we need is just one cold winter, and anyone touting a warming climate will be laughed at and slated. Hell, there are even signs of that attitude on this forum at times (despite the fact that even the naysayers concede an overall warming trend).

The opinion of the masses is largely irrelevent, since such views are based on ignorance and what newspaper they happen to read.

Calrissian: back to black irrelevant

I tend to agree with C.

But rather than blame the individual I do believe it is the fault of the government (past and present) for continually disenfranchising the individual out of any meaningful process of decision making. The simple result of that is apathy, cynicism and despondency which all in the long term lead to the same effects C expresses.

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At least once-a-week I hear the same thing: It's cold today, so much for global warming...

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Darkman, far too simplistic a view I'm afraid. There is plenty of scope for affordable energy - not energy as cheap as we have had it, but affordable, not least of which is nuclear. Why is it that those who tend to deny warming the most vociferously also tend to be those who froth at the mouth most unrealistically at the prospect of snow? Could these two be in any way related?

Well, finally, something we do agree on - Nuclear! However you will find that you're an exception because from my experience most who believe in AGW are, ironically, against Nuclear energy despite it being the only viable way for the forseeable future to really make an impact on Global emissions. PS I never deny or denied warming - I think its part of the natural cycle of the Earths climate. Others think differently.

I think you will find I am always realistic with regards to the likelyhood of snow and never seek to over state how likely it is.

As for the post above - 'why treat people as intelligent?' (calrissian) That is an absolutely ludicrous way to put forward an argument tbh in front of the population, who, are more then capable of coming to their own conclusions...

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At least once-a-week I hear the same thing: It's cold today, so much for global warming...

Thats because every time its a hot day or a windy day we are told its due to GW so what do you expect on a cold day?

Its a case of be carefull of the seeds you sew as you simply cannot have it both ways!

OH: And a quick note on Nuclear power a very clean and totally logical way of providing energy so why the resistance? That's simple too, you cannot trust 3 qtrs of the world with the technology not to try and blow the other qtr up or to manage it properly.

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Why do some people have so much faith in the human race? As a species we suck - big time. Ignorant, selfish, arrogant, misguided...

Speak for yourself :)

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At least once-a-week I hear the same thing: It's cold today, so much for global warming...

:) Its a classic, intit Pete.

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I don't know about a growing groundswell of opinion,it's more like a growing groundswell of boredom! I know my mind is made up regarding AGW,but that's just me and shouldn't be confused with the point of this thread, ie the attitude of the masses. It's like the journey down the High Street being part of your daily routine and coming across the guy with the sandwich board proclaiming 'the end is nigh'. After a while you get used to him until you no longer notice his presence. That's what's happening now re. climate change. Incidentally, I really did see one of those guys a few weeks back with an 'end is nigh' sandwich board! I thought they were the stuff of cartoons but there he was,but as far as I could tell no-one was taking a blind bit of notice!

It's got to the stage now though,that if government(and those of the world,not just ours) mean what they say,isn't it obvious that they have GOT to act instead of leaving it up to a public who is rapidly losing interest and trust of a regime where the only action that they can see is rising taxes being spent on anything but climate matters and even more restrictions? It's all very well AGW adherants coming on here and keep repeating "we've got to act". Who the hell are 'we', and apart from digging deeper and deeper into pits of money we don't have,exactly what is it that 'we' have got to do? I'm sorry,but the people who allegedly run the country have really got to get to grips with this one and clearly show where every extra penny which is raised under the banner of climate change taxation is going,and why. High Pressure put it very well in a recent post. BTW,my son (aged 5 ),receives more education at home than at school. At 4 he was extremely literate and numerate,had an almost encyclopaedic knowledge of the cosmos and an insatiable lust for learning! At school he's bored mindless because they're all still at the 'ABC' stage. If the missus and me didn't have to go out to earn a living he wouldn't go to school at all.

So,with this country specifically in mind,the AGW argument falls on the ears of four main groups as follows:

1). Those who accept AGW. No further 'persuasion' needed,though I for one would like to know how their lifestyle differs from mine in a way that makes any difference whatsoever,in any way,shape or form.

2). Those who dismiss AGW. Perhaps their viewpoint will change in time,perhaps it won't. But if it does,what are they going to do (or not do ),which is so different from their current lifestyle? Those who work will still need to work,still need to get there,heat their homes,put food on the table,and if they're lucky to have a little left over to make life enjoyable. And if they've worked damn hard all year is anyone going to begrudge them their two weeks abroad once a year? (Not my cup of tea,btw!).

3).Those who's intellectual advancement goes no further than an interest in football,telly,takeaways,Page 3, or indeed anything that you and me regard as news. In other words,the majority from what I can make out. Y'know the type,anything on the front pages or on the t.v news where anything 'sciency' is remotely involved,or political,their eyes just glaze over and they skip it. Who's to reach these people,to ignite even the tiniest flame of interest? Good luck to 'em!

4). People who are at that stage of life where they might observe with interest but are too old/infirm to 'do anything' due to the constrictive circumstances they are already in.

By my reckoning then,if all you AGWers are right we're doomed unless our great and mighty leaders step in and sort it out. After all,that's what they're paid for.

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By my reckoning then,if all you AGWers are right we're doomed unless our great and mighty leaders step in and sort it out. After all,that's what they're paid for.

I think that's a decent analysis LG - accepting the generalisations in necessary brevity. And you're quite right re what it will take to sort it out - but there's nothing new in that, and we shouldn't act with shock or disdain at the idea (some on here do). The whole concept of a public utility, and part of the raison d'etre for Government, therefore, is that the state enforces provision of that for which some would not otherwise be willing to pay (yet they would utilise). Refuse collection, sewerage, health provision, education, energy supply, transport...there are a lot of things for which we all pay, irrespective of the degree of use, and that is as it should be.

All that will happen in the next ten or twenty years is that the Earth writ large will come increasingly to be seen as the ultimate public utility, and bounds will be placed on our exploitation of the asset. And if governments don't step in, simple supply and demand will.

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All that will happen in the next ten or twenty years is that the Earth writ large will come increasingly to be seen as the ultimate public utility, and bounds will be placed on our exploitation of the asset. And if governments don't step in, simple supply and demand will.

That sounds all well and good buT simply what will happen in reality is 2 things:

Firstly rich countries (including the UK) will meet their targets but purchasing carbon credits, our government has already adimitted this, thus no real net reduction in global emissions.

Secondly: Demand pushes prices higher this is true, but this opens the door to things such as Oil Shale which becomes cost effective over $70 per barrel and there is a lot of it too mostly in the US.

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That sounds all well and good buT simply what will happen in reality is 2 things:

Firstly rich countries (including the UK) will meet their targets but purchasing carbon credits, our government has already adimitted this, thus no real net reduction in global emissions.

Secondly: Demand pushes prices higher this is true, but this opens the door to things such as Oil Shale which becomes cost effective over $70 per barrel and there is a lot of it too mostly in the US.

Credits can be traded for a while, but the BRIC economies will soon be wanting to hang on to what they have.

Quite agree re other liquid carbon sources, a point previously debated at length elsewhere re peak oil, however, Governments can, and probably will, continue to increase levies at point of production and point of purchase.

And alongside all of this, there will come technology. I was reminded today of the 'Club of Rome' and its doomladen outlook in the 70s. At heart I'm a technocrat, though not an unbridled one, but I would be surprised if economics and politics together, with technological evolution, did not provide for redirection of earth plc in the next fifty years or so away from excessively carbon based exposure.

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