GW and the decline of the Earth's magnetic field

[millennia]

Correct, a cold period to match the Dalton period would have severe consequences and worse if Maunder type period. From here a drop od 1.5c would bring about that so with a potential 2c drop then who knows. All conjecture at present but it is my current thinking

BFTP

Assuming both GW and solar activity forecasts are correct then maybe we get a break while the science is hammered out. Has anybody worked through the potential that we actually SAVE ourselves through climate change offsetting cooling long enough for us to do something about it?

Now there's a clever human

Edited April 29, 2008 by millennia

[Roo]

I have given references Jethro, John Major Jenkins and Geoff Stray. It was more for an expansion on the Mayan connection which G-W speaks of, and yes, it may be due to magnetic effect which we are not too clued up on yet. Jenkins doesnt go too far into the magnetic side of it, but investigates the astro-myths and legends of the Izapans and Maya.

I think it should be noted that Mayan scholars do not credit either of these interpretations. They have been ruled out for a number of reasons.

As it says in this article:

University of Florida anthropologist Susan Gillespie says the 2012 phenomenon comes "from media and from other people making use of the Maya past to fulfill agendas that are really their own."

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-...maya-2012_n.htm

[jethro]

I think it should be noted that Mayan scholars do not credit either of these interpretations. They have been ruled out for a number of reasons.

As it says in this article:

University of Florida anthropologist Susan Gillespie says the 2012 phenomenon comes "from media and from other people making use of the Maya past to fulfill agendas that are really their own."

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-...maya-2012_n.htm

Blimey Roo, something we agree upon! Bet no one ever thought they'd read that sentence....

[Roo]

Blimey Roo, something we agree upon! Bet no one ever thought they'd read that sentence....

The exception that proves the rule?? :lol:

[SnowBear]

I would also like to point out that its because John Major Jenkins didnt go to uni, and get his stripes the usual way (ie: become a buddy and fall in with the uni types) that he is discredited so much, but that is becoming less as his research and database on the Maya is becoming recognised as a very valuable resource. His theory, evidence and arguements are much to be reckoned with.

Admittedly and I know that there are very many way out theories to do with 2012, some absolutely up there in the stars, but you cannot find many faults with Jenkins work, and he has the backing of the Maya themselves, which in my view makes a lot of difference. He does not predict a global catastrophe in 2012, just looks into the Maya astro-myths and what they were pointing to.

With regard to your article Roo, nowhere does it mention Jenkins. Please do not mix up Jenkins with other authors who have jumped on the bandwagon, gone against the Maya thoughts and calendars, and basically made their own system which has nothing to do with the Maya at all.

But scholars doubt the ancient Maya extrapolated great meaning from anticipating the alignment — if they were even aware of what the configuration would be.

Astronomers generally agree that "it would be impossible the Maya themselves would have known that," says Susan Milbrath, a Maya archaeoastronomer and a curator at the Florida Museum of Natural History. What's more, she says, "we have no record or knowledge that they would think the world would come to an end at that point."

University of Florida anthropologist Susan Gillespie says the 2012 phenomenon comes "from media and from other people making use of the Maya past to fulfill agendas that are really their own."

This to me says the author of this article has not read Jenkins books, his data base, theories or otherwise. Jenkins isnt a Gibson trying to make a movie, it isnt Hollywood stuff, its a serious study spanning many many years into the Maya and their myths and lore.

I do suggest folks read the books by Jenkins before making judgement or taking note of ill informed articles on the subject and those regarding the Maya as "stoopid stone age dribbling idiots".

With regard to Stray, his website is a collection of articles on all the theories on the Maya and 2012 Long Count End date (or more to the point Beginning Date). His collection goes into each theory and takes a good look at them, which was eventually made into a book. Beyond 2012.

Edited April 29, 2008 by SnowBear

[Roo]

I would also like to point out that its because John Major Jenkins didnt go to uni, and get his stripes the usual way (ie: become a buddy and fall in with the uni types) that he is discredited so much, but that is becoming less as his research and database on the Maya is becoming recognised as a very valuable resource. His theory, evidence and arguements are much to be reckoned with.

No. it's because his theories don't fit the evidence, and you can say whatever you want, but he is not recognised within the field as his theories do not stand up to scrutiny. You don't have to go to uni, you just have to be able to back up your argument with solid information. He can't.

http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/cjc.htm

I do suggest folks read the books by Jenkins before making judgement or taking note of ill informed articles on the subject and those regarding the Maya as "stoopid stone age dribbling idiots".

I do not believe at all that they were 'stoopid stone age dribbling idiots'. I just don't think Jenkins is right.

Also, stone age does not mean primitive, anyway: a civilisation can be stone age, but can still be incredibly advanced.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Roo

[SnowBear]

Please Roo, what research have you done into the Maya, Hopi etc?

And please research into Calleman before you go much futher, he made up a data to fit in with his own system, which does not agree with the Maya True Count. His date is 2011, not the Maya True Count 2012 which has been kept by the Maya Timekeepers for centuries.

I suggest no more discrediting until you have read the books, the history in the debate of what the right Maya End Date is between Calleman and Jenkins, what Jenkins Theories are, how he is backed by the Maya themselves and who and what Calleman is and the history of his theory.

http://alignment2012.com/debate.html

Edited April 29, 2008 by SnowBear

[Roo]

I suggest no more discrediting until you have read the books, the history in the debate of what the right Maya End Date is between Calleman and Jenkins, what Jenkins Theories are, how he is backed by the Maya themselves and who and what Calleman is and the history of his theory.

http://alignment2012.com/debate.html

Sorry, I didn't mean to say Calleman was right (I don't think he is), but was using him as an example of why Jenkins is not the only view. I could also ask the same question about research that you have done. You clearly do not accept research provided by 'uni types' so I won't bother with academic refs.

There is no end of the world in 2012. But, anyway, I'm not going to get into this any further as it's all a bit Ken Ring, mystic alignments and Graham Hancock for my liking.

[SnowBear]

Roo, my research is about 10 years now of study, of various theories, discussions, and a ton of books collected along the way! lol

I will say that Jenkins Cosmogenesis theory is the one that to me makes the most sense, and does reveal what the BallCourt means, the alignments of the Pyramids there, the Kulkucan serpent and its links with the Zenith and Zenith Cosmology, Polar Cosmology and the Fall of Macaw, and all sorts and the progression through time of the understanding of the precession of the equinoxes, galactic core...and a mountain of other things they found by looking at the skies over centuries.

To be honest, we would be here forever if we started out on exploring the wonders of the ancients in that area of the world. I will just say that I do not discount what academics say in this area, but I do feel that much is taken for granted on incomplete data and evidence, and there seems to be a resistance to "upsetting the apple cart" with regard to the history as its written for now.

Agreed, no end of the world in 2012, and the Maya count carries on afterwards...13.0.0.0.0, next day, 0.0.0.0.1.the 13 baktun cycles begins again, to the Maya it was a Creation Date, the start of the New World, not the End as many seem to be harking on about now.

I thoroughly recommend Jenkins book, Cosmogenesis 2012, its a very thorough investigation and study of the Astro-myths and I think gives the best explanation to how the Izapans and Mayan knowledge of the skies progressed over time and the myths came about due to the fact the had to keep adjusting their calendar due to precession. Within this they found that in 2012 there was a fairly major alignment going to happen, the galactic core, with the sun, Venus and other objects. Marking the movement of the Winter Solstice alignment of the Sun to the other side of the galactic plane.

Its an awesome subject to explore and full of wonders!

Edited April 29, 2008 by SnowBear

[Gray-Wolf]

I think, at times, Roo appears unwilling to stretch beyond current discoveries in so far as 'civilisations' are concerned and Mr Hancock has not aided us in our persuasion of Mrs Roo.

Civilisation seems to have grown up around the flood plains of river delta's. Before 11,500 CE the Rhine/Thames/seine ran into an outflow down Portugal way with large areas of the continental shelf grassy plains running into the delta. So much stuff has been dredged up from the north/Irish sea to show mans presence you have to wonder about the type and complexity of the 'tribes' that ran in this region.

We could have had a 'plains Indian' scale and complexity of society yet , currently, evidence points to European man being a hunter/gatherer/scrounger without any of the traits of 'civilisation' present. I wonder how much of the square mile will remain after the next inundation?

Edited May 2, 2008 by Gray-Wolf

[jethro]

Here's a new report, it seems changes in the magnetic field happen a lot quicker than first thought.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/...80619102553.htm

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v1/n6/abs/ngeo203.html

[Gray-Wolf]

So now we seem to be moving towards a place where rapid 'flips' can occur.

Maybe we now need to assess whether, as a motor can become a generator, streams of charged particles from CME's can lead to the ,now dynamically changing core, being forced into movement enabling the type of field 'flip' that I've postulated above.

The chances of these 'flips/reversals' being flipped back also seems to be more likely if the core is already being 'stirred up' by external electromagnetic pushing.

[jethro]

Not so sure this is a new phenomena, more likely it's just a case of newer technology now being able to measure it.

That being said, flips can and do happen for reasons yet to be understood. History tells us it has happened in the past, at times abruptly. As for what the effects felt would be, other than confused compasses, well that's anyone's guess.

Certainly in our period of measured history (including old ships logs), magnetic North has been wandering around at an ever increasing rate and haphazard manner. This combined with what appears to be odd behaviour of the Sun; we live in interesting times.

[Gray-Wolf]

Not so sure this is a new phenomena, more likely it's just a case of newer technology now being able to measure it.

That being said, flips can and do happen for reasons yet to be understood. History tells us it has happened in the past, at times abruptly. As for what the effects felt would be, other than confused compasses, well that's anyone's guess.

Certainly in our period of measured history (including old ships logs), magnetic North has been wandering around at an ever increasing rate and haphazard manner. This combined with what appears to be odd behaviour of the Sun; we live in interesting times.

Sorry Jethro, I meant to imply that our 'measuring' of the phenomena was new

As for it's impacts (reversals) on such an 'electrical' civilisation...who knows but I think it will be more far reaching than our compasses turning around!

Most bird migrations have an element of guidance from the speck of magnetite in the critters heads so what of them? UMIST also proved in the 80's that humans also have the innate ability to 'know' north (when driven around blindfolded an asked to face north) from the same teensy weensy specks of magnetite in our heads.I'd suspect if it's common to mammals and birds then most all critters have some reliance on the 'compass in their heads'.

We'll have to wait for a 'Geek' to outline the full impacts of reversals on our technologies.

As for 'geophysical impacts' you expect many deep centred earthquakes to arise from the internal gyrations (and attendant Tsunamis if these occur at subduction zones) and intensification of volcanic activities for the same reasons.

In fact, it all starts to sound like many of the 'end of the world' myths from around the globe. Maybe we (humanity) have lived through such short term upheavals in our pasts (though the reversals were too short lived to present in the geological records at oceanic spreading centres?).

[VillagePlank]

Interesting article, here discussing whether magnetic flipping after particular warm periods signify the onset of ice-age.

(Don't shoot the messenger - I didn't say I subscribed to this pov)

[jethro]

As far as impact on we humans, I don't doubt it for a second; at the end of the day our brains are just a combination of chemical and electrical impulses. Personally I cannot wear a watch, analogue or digital, they all stop, apparently this is due to my "magnetism"; when I was diving it was a pain in the backside as you really do need to know how long you've been down.

There is quite a lot of information in the geological records, earthquakes, volcano's etc do appear to go through a phase of intense activity when previous flips occurred. I've also read other info linking flips to ice ages, certainly there appears to be climatic impacts but I think the jury is still out on cause/effect - chicken and egg situation.

In recent times, if you look at the period of increasingly erratic behaviour, the period of the decline in magnetic field and increasing temperatures do appear synchronous.

[Gray-Wolf]

Oh Joy!

[jethro]

Came across this site, full of interesting stuff; can't find any info on the author though, is he legit?

http://www.earthsgeomotor.com/

[0000]

Came across this

are you all at it? jethro for shame pet!

[jethro]

are you all at it? jethro for shame pet!

you naughty, naughty man.

[jethro]

Here's some new info on the declining magnetic field (courtesy of Grey Wolf) :

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/The_eart..._study_999.html

Seems there's a strong link between field strength and precipitation in the Tropics; also ties in with Svensmark's Cosmic Ray theory.

Heading off to read "The Chilling Stars" again.

[Essan]

Abstract can be read here:

http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/con...bstract/37/1/71

(always better to find that - or better still the actual paper than rely on popular media interpretation of a press release )

[jethro]

Thanks for that; seems the press release was accurate (for a change!).

[jethro]

Here's the full paper, thanks to Captain Bob.

http://geology.gsapubs.org/cgi/content/full/37/1/71

[adriank888]

Hello, I thought you might be interested in this paper.

Kind regards

Adrian

www.akk.me.uk

Climate Change and the Earth's Magnetic Poles, A Possible Connection

Author: Kerton, Adrian K.

Source: Energy & Environment, Volume 20, Numbers 1-2, January 2009 , pp. 75-83(9)

Publisher: Multi-Science Publishing Co Ltd

Abstract:

Many natural mechanisms have been proposed for climate change during the past

millennia, however, none of these appears to have accounted for the change in

global temperature seen over the second half of the last century. As such the rise

in temperature has been attributed to man made mechanisms. Analysis of the movement

of the Earth's magnetic poles over the last 105 years demonstrates strong

correlations between the position of the north magnetic, and geomagnetic poles, and

both northern hemisphere and global temperatures. Although these correlations are

surprising, a statistical analysis shows there is a less than one percent chance

they are random, but it is not clear how movements of the poles affect climate.

Links between changes in the Earth's magnetic field and climate change, have been

proposed previously although the exact mechanism is disputed. These include: The

Earth's magnetic field affects the energy transfer rates from the solar wind to the

Earth's atmosphere which in turn affects the North Atlantic Oscillation. Movement

of the poles changes the geographic distribution of galactic and solar cosmic rays,

moving them to particularly climate sensitive areas. Changes in distribution of

ultraviolet rays resulting from the movement of the magnetic field, may result in

increases in the death rates of carbon sinking oceanic plant life such as

phytoplankton.

Keywords: MAGNETIC POLES; DRIFT; CLIMATE; COSMIC RAYS

Document Type: Research article

DOI: 10.1260/095830509787689286

Much more disturbing than climate change due to Anthropogenic CO2 production is the diminution of the Earth's magnetic field due to Anthropogenic magnetic pollution. Every line of magnetic force attempts to connect to the line of magnetic force issuing from a nearby opposite magnetic pole.

The surface of the earth, on and beneath the oceans, our atmosphere, nearby space and even beyond the limits of our recognised solar system now contains Anthropogenic magnetic bodies, from those feeble ceramic affairs in the Voyager spacecraft to those in the earpieces of our MP3 players. Not only our powerful Neodymium alloy magnets present in amazing numbers (how many can you count in your PC? -I bet you underestimate by at least 50%!) in each and every computer looking at this webpage, and all those networked in between. Add to this the magnetic fields generated by every appliance, circuit and installation, every vehicle, ship, aircraft and satellite, and you can see that there are spurious magnetic fields, stationary, oscillating, in motion, in random and fixed paths at all times in greater or lesser concentrations all over our space, and these fields all link together.

The field of the earth is quite weak, compared to some of the fields produced in the NMR machinery in hospitals, in particle accelerators, in waste reclaimation tips, or in the speaker systems of some rock groups. It is no wonder that the resultant magnetic field of the earth is weakening with ever increasing rate, since we treat these "harmless" but powerful lumps of stored energy with such contempt - I found a cast-away remnant of an ear-bud in the street today, looks like a minute flying saucer - but within it contains a small toroidal aluminium alloy magnet, which will continue attracting other magnets until time and decay reduces it to dust, in fifty years or so.

Once the Earth's natural field is completely swamped by Anthropogenic magnetism, and I expect the new magnetic poles to centre over China and the USA for a while due to the fact that China will be the major producer, and The USA to be the major consumer of electrical goods - I may be wrong - The USA may be totally bankrupt soon - and that all the (stuff that contains) magnets will actually self-organize into un-stickable polarized structures (a bit like Transformers, the toy kind, not the Westinghouse kind). Eventually Earth will begin to attract iron-nickel meteorites of ever increasing size from the asteroid belt, and they will also attract us, shifting our orbit further away from the sun, and exposing us to increasingly menacing mass extinction events.

What can we do to prevent this tragedy, apart from responsible recycling so that any waste magnetised material is either destroyed by heating it above its Curie point, or reducing all such material to such a size that the constituent magnetic domains are totally disrupted (with consideration of the increased carbon footprint of either operation), or do we learn to live without magnets?

Can anyone help? I can't find the tongue-in-cheek icon.