firefly

It did in 2010.

The last snow was Eldon Hole, which persisted well into July AT LEAST. The latest above ground snow was on The Cheviot, which melted around the 2nd July. Quite late by English standards.

Yup. Now 7, down from 81. That's not unusual for late September/early October. We're down to the snow-patch season proper now! It's so hard to say. Minimum of 3 I'd say. Maximum probably of 5. 2006 all snow melted in Scotland. If memory serves me correctly the final snow melted that year on 1st October.

Polar Maritime, where did you get that photo?! That was taken by Al Todd and features... me! I was up there with Al on Sunday and am looking forward to seeing his pictures! Anyway... Over the course of the weekend I visited most of the extant snow patches in Scotland. As mentioned by PM above, Blair Fyffe visited Ben Nevis and found a few patches. All told there were (at the time of the visits) 7 patches in Scotland. The biggest of which is the one linked to above, on Aonach Beag (situated, amazingly, at around 3000ft, here). A good picture of the depth of this snow can be found in my picture, here. The patch measured 50.7 metres long on Sunday and is a certainty for survival to winter. Aonach Mor, the mountain beside Aonach Beag (both part of the Nevis range of mountains) also held a tiny remnant, seen here, for those of you with good eyesight! Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach, had two patches left. The so-called Sphinx and Pinnacles patches were both present and correct. The patch of snow in the middle (Sphinx) is the most durable in the UK. It has melted just 6 times since the 1700s at least (1933, 1953, 1959, 1996, 2003, 2006). I suspect that, although only 8 metres across at its widest, it will last until the new snows of winter. The lower patch (Pinnacles) was 21 metres long at the time the photo was taken.

This is utter rubbish from the Daily Record and all the other media sources that copied each other. There has been no snow on the hills of Scotland, let alone in the quantities that the misleading picture shows. It's just another badly reported non-event. Rest assured, the only place to get up-to-date news on snow falling in Scotland is my Twitter feed! @theiaincameron

Prior to the heat-wave I'd have said pretty good. The Carn Ban Mor patch would almost certainly have survived (it may still, though looking unlikely), as would one or two others that don't normally. The hot weather decimated the snow somewhat. I'd say it looks pretty average to be honest. It's likely that a few will survive, though nothing's certain. If I were a betting man I'd say 5 patches. We shall see!

Helen's pictures of Carn Ban Mor are among the best snow-patch photos you're likely to see. If you look beyond the very impressive depth there are various interesting points that may not be immediately obvious to the untrained eye. First of all, in this photograph you can see the area around the big snow-patch on the left devoid of heather. Notice how it's green rather than brown? Long-lying snow discourages heather growth. If you look in the west-facing water courses, where snow tends to gather at Carn Ban Mor when it's been snowing from the east, you can see the same thing. Moving in a bit closer, see the brown area of dormant grass? This shows it emerging into the sunlight for the first time in about 8 months. To all intents and purposes the grass thinks it's spring. It quickly turns green, as you can see from the colour of the grass above it which has been exposed longer. Interestingly, in historical accounts we've read, sheep favour this new grass more than others. It was said by an 18th century observer that the sheep were fattened by this type of grass quicker than others. Most interesting of all, though, are the layers of banding in the snow-pack. In this photograph you can make out a 'cake' effect, with layers of old snow at the bottom, and an unlayered, thicker section at the top 75% of the snow. This stratification shows the successive snow-falls over winter. The older layers lie at the bottom. The two very distinct dark bands are the remnants of debris that came to rest on the snow surface when it was exposed between snow-falls. So, for example, in January there would have been a large fall of snow, followed by a milder, windier spell from the south west. This would have blown grass and debris onto the snow, where it would have settled in the bumps and hollows. Further snow-fall would have buried this, and the process would have repeated, hence creating the 'cake' effect. Finally, the massive falls of March 22-24 buried the lot of it, and gave the old snow a very, very thick coat of protection. That's the unlayered, thicker top 75% of the snow-patch. The reason it has no layers is that it all fell in one gigantic storm. Incredibly impressive. That's why it's survived this long. Had the falls of March not happened then all snow pre that date would be long gone.

Yes, there is still an awful lot of snow left on the mountains of Scotland. I can only assume that people who struggle to believe it can last any longer are not familiar with the vagaries of the British climate, or the hills of this country. Many mountains still retain a decent level of cover. For sure the recent weather has decimated some of the snow, but there was enough there in the first place to make sure it could endure even a prolonged heat wave. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmason84/9347514896/sizes/l/in/photostream/ The photograph linked to shows the imposing north east face of Ben Nevis, taken a few days ago (20th July). Though it may not look like much in the photo, the depth in the top section of Observatory Gully will be getting on for 8-10 metres. The overall length of the patch there will be close to 175 metres long. Polar Maritime has linked to a photo of Garbh Choire Mòr, Braeriach, which shows considerable depth. This snow is the longest lasting in Britain, and has disappeared only 5 times since the 1700s (1933, 1959, 1996, 2003 and 2006). To my trained eye it looks a good candidate for survival to winter. I organise a Scotland-wide survey on Bank Holiday weekend, August. I expect to find quite a bit of snow, as usual. I don't think there will be any north of the Great Glen, but that the Cairngorms and Nevis range will hold the most. I will keep you all updated.

Glad to see this thread back off the ground... As spindrift has intimated, the coming season looks promising. As I write there is more snow in general on the hills than at any time in late June since 2008. There are several reasons for this. First of all, the early season of December and Januray was characterised by heavy falls from the south west and west. This fills the NE facing hollows. Frequent freeze/thaw cycles help consolidate the pack, giving it a flak jacket for summer. Secondly, the spring was very cool. One can normally expect to see snow disappear fairly quickly in April if the right conditions prevail. However, 2013 March, April and May all were cooler than average, and the pack remained in good nick. It's of course early days, but I'll keep this updated as and when. For a more immediate updating too,, check me out in Twitter @theiaincameron. There are a few folk on there following me. Spread the word!

Yes, the snow patches on the Cheviot will almost certainly be the last in England. The Pennines and Lake District snows will either be gone, or will be gone in a day or so. I expect that the Cheviot will persist for another week or so. Still no word of Eldon Hole!

It seems that an update is the order of the day! As I type, snow still persists in England. Mid-June represents a late final melt-date for snow by the standards of recent years. I am aware of snow still persisting on Cross Fell and The Cheviot. The latter most of all. Jonathan Mobberly was up on the 8th June and found a large patch, shown here: https://twitter.com/theiaincameron/status/345060617796845568 I've no doubt that there are one or two small patches persisting in the Lakes, on a NW aspect. However, most of the usual long-lasting locations seem to be free of snow. If I were a betting man I'd go for The Cheviot to be last. For those interested in Wales' snow, the last patched appeared to be one on Carnedd Llewelyn, in Snowdonia. https://twitter.com/theiaincameron/status/344209391374970881 This snow, as with the others that lasted longest this year, faced north west. All these NW patches were remnants of the big snow storm in March, which blew in on a SE wind. There must have been some massive deposits of snow in that storm, as it's taken 3 months for it to melt at the most favoured places. Remarkable, really. There is a possibility that snow yet remains at Eldon Hole in the Peak District, but as yet I've not had that substantiated. I'm still trying to find out. I will report on here if it does. EDIT: a fascinating patch to survive into June was one on the Berwyn Mountains of NE Wales. Description and photo here: http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/28183399@N03/8945605852/

It was 1979, and it was July. Also, it was the Pennines! The last snow to go that year was on 18th August, at Crowdundle Beck, on Great Dun Fell. It's the latest I've heard of snow persisting on the Pennines, or indeed north England.

As I write there are various locations in England that still have substantial patches of snow. The Lakes, Pennines and Cheviot Hills all have snow, and it is almost certain that one or more of these will have snow until June. A trip report on my Flickr page http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/sets/72157633581394377/comments/ shows some big patches and substantial depth on the Cheviot in northern England. These should last quite comfortably into June. The last snow, or so we believe, to vanish in the Yorkshire Dales would have been a few days ago, on the western flank of Great Whernside. This photo shows the last wreaths on the 16th May http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/file.php?2,file=9128 Cross Fell still has large patches, and so do a few hills in the Lakes. It is likely that Eldon Hole I the Peak District still has snow, but it's been very hard to get a definite answer. The last visit I am aware of, some weeks ago now, confirmed that there was a large amount still present as a 'snow plug' at the bottom of the cave. My feeling is that it will still be there, but I'd love to have that confirmed. If anyone knows of pot-holers who've been there then please let me know or post on here! In short, a decent year for snow patches in England!

June snow is quite likely in a few places this year. If I were a betting man I'd say one of the last to go will be the massive one on Green Gable, Lake District. http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/file.php?2,file=9103 150m long about 4 metres deep last week. A certainty for June.

I would agree with that. Between 1996-2006 we saw some very lean years of snow, and very warm summers. Snow disappeared completely 3 times from Scotland between these dates, where it had only done so twice in the few hundred years before this. Since then, though, there's been a return to more unpredictable and generally cooler winters.The big question is, of course, is this itself a blip on an otherwise warming picture?

When snow lies for a long time it tends to get covered in organic matter. This is particularly true where there's a lot of vegetation. In my experience where snow lies in an area where it's predominantly rocky then the organic matter is less. This organic matter (grass, soil etc) lies on the snow, and as it melts the debris settles on the snow and doesn't get blown off. If you look at my photo from yesterday (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/8678268899/sizes/l/in/photostream/) you can see a lot of organic matter on the bottom left of the picture.In this photograph of Britain's snowiest place, Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach, (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/3490706193/in/set-72157617554192258) from 1959, you can see a snow-patch hollow that had contained snow for 26 years until it had melted. The black residue looks like tar. It was in fact the build up of 26 years of organic matter that had been deposited on the rock by the melting snow. It's a fascinating subject for study!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/sets/72157633321780762/with/8677955049/

I doubt that, though obviously we can't be sure. In a paper from 1910, JR Gethin Jones (Jones, J.R.G. (1909). The spot in England and Wales where snow lies latest, with observations of snowfall on the Snowdonian Range. British Rainfall 49, 46–53.) made no mention of lasting snow at Y Ffoes Ddyfn on Carnedd Llewelyn, Snowdonia, in 1879. Though he may have overstated the snow in terms of its prominence in England and Wales, there's little doubt that sometimes it lasts longer than any other snow south of Hadrian's Wall. Certainly in 2010, where it lasted until June 28th, it was the last above-ground snow to melt.In 1879, the snow lasted until around 18th August at this location (Ashmore, S.E. (1948). The late-surviving snow-bed on Carnedd Llewelyn. Journal of Glaciology 1, 205–207.) I suspect that none survived in that year, but that's just a guess.My own journey to that location yesterday can be found here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/sets/72157633321780762/

The largest snow in the Peak District is on Margery Hill, above Derwent. Around 40-50 metres long. SK186957. Howden Edge. http://t.co/YNcMsy3RDg I'd be surprised if the snow here lasted much past 1st May.

Well, I've missed this discussion! Lots of conjecture and postulation... First of all, the longest snow that I have heard about lasting in England, and it has already been linked to, is at Eldon Hole in Derbyshire. This snow, almost certainly, lasted to winter in 2010. I received a note from a caver who confirmed that a snow plug was present in early November (i.e. old snow) of that year. Lasting snow came here in late November. This snow has gone under the radar, and only concerted digging - metaphorically - by me uncovered it. It is almost certain that it has survived in very snowy years, unrecorded. There's a record of it having survived in 1947 AND 1948, doubtless as a result of the hole filling up in the exceptionally snowy year of 1947. Given the snow is subterranean, it isn't affected like the other snow patches that last much shorter. In this respect it is like the artificial snow holes (or ice houses) of the southern Mediterranean countries. It isn't exposed to sun, and rain melt is far less than it would be if it were above-ground. Also, the amount of snow in the hole will lower the temperature in summer months so that it creates its own micro-climate. The latest I have heard about snow surviving in England 'above ground' is 18th August 1979. This was at Crowdundle Beck, Great Dun Fell, Pennines. This is well documented. It is also mentioned in our Cool Britannia book (available from Amazon!). I see there is some discussion regarding the snow in the Cotswolds in 1947. According to Manley it persisted in a 'shady location'. Manley didn't give the location, alas, so it's conjecture as to where it is. 1947 was an exceptionally snowy year, and the sheer volume of snow meant that it was able to resist the spring temperatures. Whilst I was doing my research for the Cool Britannia book, I uncovered a reference to snow persisting in the Cotswolds until August. I thought this crazy and highly unlikely. However, upon uncovering the Giles Geast charity book in the Gloucester records office, I spied a hand-written note from 1634, which stated that a 'great quantite' of snow persisted at Brockhampton quarry until August of that year. Incredible. It seems unlikely that anyone would fabricate such a record, given the book is a fine statement of local facts. Anyway... I was up Helvellyn today in the Lake District, and plenty if snow exists. Easily enough to last well into May. No photos, alas, as the weather was horrendous. I am going around the Peak Distruct tomorrow to see how much persists. I see that The Edge of Kinder Scout is still holding some (see here http://twitter.com/theiaincameron/status/326376170927030274/photo/1). I suspect that there is still a good drift or two on Bleaklow, which I hope to uncover tomorrow. Watch this space!

No. The latest that snow has persisted in the Pennines in recent times is 18th August 1979, at Crowdundle Beck on Great Dun Fell. The latest that snow has persisted in England in recent times is actually all year round, at Eldon Hole in 2010. A pot-holer came across a plug of snow from the previous winter when he descended in early November 2010. Astonishing. I expect this year will see late survivals in very unusual places (west facing). All reports great fully received!

Thanks. I'm a walker. Amazing that one of the biggest snow geeks around has never skied or snowboarded!

Well ladies and gentlemen, that concludes 2012's snow-patch season for the Highlands of Scotland. Heavy snow a few days ago has buried the final patch (this one on Aonach Beag, taken 24 October). This year we've a total of six patches surviving to new winter's snow. They are as follows: Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach - 4 patches Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis - 1 patch Aonach Beag - 1 patch Dates of lasting snow to these locations are: Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach - 2nd October Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis - 14th October Aonach Beag - 31st October In summary, winter 2011-12 was a bit of a hit and miss affair. Dare I say it, a typical Scottish winter? Big falls of snow from the west, north-west and south-west in December and January filled the longest-lying hollows. February and March were dreadful, with both returning above average temperatures and little snow. At the end of March the outlook was bleak, but the very cold and snowy April (and first three weeks of May) returned hope. The cool summer undoubtedly assisted with the longevity of the snow, as did the frequent freeze/thaw cycles in early winter. Here are a few pictures of the snow patches taken relatively recently: Garbh Choire Mor, 24th September 2012 (Eddie Boyle). All four patches are visible. Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis, 26th October 2012 (Alan Halewood) - Taken from Tower Ridge. Aonach Beag, 31st October (Attila Kish) I hope this thread has been of interest to members on here. The amount of miles travelled and feet ascended this year is massive, and all of it is done by enthusiastic amateurs. Without the help of these amateurs it would be impossible to do this with only a few 'stalwarts'. The best thing about this information we gather is that it is distributed freely, and since no-one pays us to do it then it is also free of all sorts of political spin (climate change etc). Others can interpret the results of our research. We just measure the snow! Until 2013...

With an impending cold snap coming up, we're hopeful that the existing old snow still to be found on the three Scottish mountains (Braeriach, Aonach Beag, Ben Nevis) will be well covered by this time next week. To that end I made a special trip up onto Ben Nevis and Aonach Beag on Sunday to photograph and measure the snow remaining from last winter. Thankfully both patches are in good nick. First of all I visited Ben Nevis's Observatory Gully. I found a 26 metre long patch that still had over a metre of depth. The snow was pretty solid, but was melting from the bottom slightly. It had a nice covering of about 2 inches of new stuff on it, and I'm almost certain it'll survive until the new season's snow. View of the patch from below. From there it was the arduous slog over to Aonach Beag. A roller coaster of a walk, with extremely difficult terrain to negotiate. Fortunately the patch over there was reward enough, and was 21.4 metres long and about 1 metre deep. A full suite of pictures is here. If anyone wants to keep up to date then I've joined the Twitter revolution! @theiaincameron You'll hear it there first, folks!

No, that's incorrect. The most permanent patch is on Braeriach. It's called Sphinx, and is linked to in my earlier post. Your source is mistaken I'm afraid. I'd be interested to know where he/she came by this info.